Red Mage could use some help.

[Shurrikhan]

Man, I thought I was the only one who wondered about that!
I mean, if you look at the ability progression and the lore it reinforces the idea of going 'melee -> Caster -> melee' rather than 'caster -> melee -> Caster'.
I still think that SE's way of 'balancing' red mage dps is going to be related to the frequency with which we do our melee combo ('Burst type damage playstyle'). Increased Frequency = more damage, decreased frequency = less damage. Right now, given that the job is so young, It's my honest belief that they are opting to keep it on the 'low side' so that any 'balancing' will be embraced as a buff.

That being said, having us as melee->caster would put another body in melee range, which is a bit crowded. So I'm ok with our default being a spell slinger from a mechanics/balance perspective. It just feels unbalanced because you spend too much time in 'slinger' mode compared to the 'sword' phase.
In my overly simplistic view, Corps-a-Corps is the limiting factor at 40 seconds. In theory we should be able to generate enough W/B to do the full melee combo (Corps, melee combo, displacement,ver-finisher) each time corps comes off cooldown.
Also, I'd like to see Embolden's mechanic get inverted, so that it becomes more powerful during it's duration instead of less powerful since the burst damage combo is so 'back-loaded'.

Personally, I usually just Corps-a-Corps and Displacement on CD for the free oGCD damage, and try to ensure they've just been used before Manafication's refresh to each, so they've never really struck me as necessary book-ends to the melee combo. The main oddity to me is just that it feels like it might as well all just be Flare or any other ranged finisher, except that we're spending 1.8 GCDs prior via instant melee range skills prior. As both resource generation and spenders, especially, are so one-dimensional, nothing about it feels different or even like it needs the sword, even when slashing people with it. It just feels ornamental.

[Tzain]

Personally, I usually just Corps-a-Corps and Displacement on CD for the free oGCD damage, and try to ensure they've just been used before Manafication's refresh to each, so they've never really struck me as necessary book-ends to the melee combo. The main oddity to me is just that it feels like it might as well all just be Flare or any other ranged finisher, except that we're spending 1.8 GCDs prior via instant melee range skills prior. As both resource generation and spenders, especially, are so one-dimensional, nothing about it feels different or even like it needs the sword, even when slashing people with it. It just feels ornamental.

Yeah, I was just using the Corps-a-corps as a sort of 'simplistic short hand' for a combo that I figured we all understood. Although Displacement into the Ver-finisher just feels sooooo gooood.

I do see what you mean there, but there's only so many ways you can do 'damage' before they become redundant. Having a melee combo powered by ranged spell slinging is at least somewhat unique. Also take a look at my other comment to Firestar, I do mention in there why I think the melee combo is so linear and simplistic.

[Shurrikhan]

Yeah, I was just using the Corps-a-corps as a sort of 'simplistic short hand' for a combo that I figured we all understood. Although Displacement into the Ver-finisher just feels sooooo gooood.

I do see what you mean there, but there's only so many ways you can do 'damage' before they become redundant. Having a melee combo powered by ranged spell slinging is at least somewhat unique. Also take a look at my other comment to Firestar, I do mention in there why I think the melee combo is so linear and simplistic.

Oh, I didn't mean to connote contrary views in posting as I did. My intent was more one of piggie-backing off your text than running counter to it, but as there was that first bit of difference, I lost my shorthand "This!" to denote that fact. My apologies.

Side-note: I had a huge pipedream RDM idea written out before RDM was mentioned as an upcoming job, and it played hugely into the idea of a macrorotationally nuanced spell-sword. I'll have to dig it up sometime and see what I can salvage of it, which may be little since it was built on an idea that Additional Skills would be replaced with, well, something far more integral than Role Skills.

[basketofseals]

Sort of makes me think of what I originally thought RDM would be doing: using the melee combo as a generator and the spells as spenders. I think a big cause of RDM's current depth is the fact we have one spender, and everything else is a generator.

Yeah it's really weird how "sword out" stance is the default when RDM casts for the majority of its gameplay.

[Kacho_Nacho]

Sort of makes me think of what I originally thought RDM would be doing: using the melee combo as a generator and the spells as spenders. I think a big cause of RDM's current depth is the fact we have one spender, and everything else is a generator.

To tell you the truth, that's what I thought the job was going to be when it was first announced. I wonder in a 'what if' fashion if red mages would fit in the rankings better if that were the case? Would the job's damage output increase if red mages were overhauled to use melee combo generators and spell spenders?

Another idea: Leave red mages alone but nerf summoner output in response to its greater utility. The reason this idea would be good is it does not affect the game play of the red mages. I greatly enjoy the simplicity of the job and appreciate there is an understanding by S.E. that not all of their players want complicated classes.

[Singularity]

To tell you the truth, that's what I thought the job was going to be when it was first announced. I wonder in a 'what if' fashion if red mages would fit in the rankings better if that were the case? Would the job's damage output increase if red mages were overhauled to use melee combo generators and spell spenders?

Damage output is an entirely separate thing from gameplay. SE could double the potency of Veraero and Verthunder for example and the damage output would skyrocket without changing the gameplay at all.

nerf summoner output in response to its greater utility.

I think this needs to happen regardless of changes to RDM, for BLM's sake if nothing else. Right now SMN has more damage, more (indeed, some, as BLM has none) group damage, more freedom of movement and better utility than BLM does, making it pretty much strictly better.

[TraeSnow]

Snip

But it has been said that a class' DPS is also based on how punished they are upon death. Which, to my understanding as well as popular consensus, SMN is one of the most punished jobs upon a death. Sure, all DPS are punished on death, but some more severely than others. BLM are not severely punished upon death. I feel like people just completely forget this part when they complain about "xxx job is less dps than xxx job" especially since they are not taking into consideration the entirety of what justifies their damage. BLM does not have to wait for MP upon revival, so their dps is not hindered that extensively. I mean, a SMN might as well not even accept res until Lucid or Aether is at least up. AND with the nerf to Aetherflow, SMN has to use Energy to regain MP if they die.

Now, in a perfect situation, no one is supposed to die. However, that does not change the fact that the dps of a class reflects how punished a job is upon death.

[Maero]

Casters as example it is competition, granted not fierce at the moment because smn is so much better then the other 2. But it comes down to spots in groups especially when some jobs get left out. (yes i am aware at one point smn got left out)
SE are clueless how to balance jobs out.

[Flarestar]

The problem with buffing RDM is the same as it's always been. RDM is insanely easy to play compared to literally every other dps class. At the top end of gameplay, yeah, it's outperformed substantially (8-10%) by a few of the other dps, and moderately (3-5%) by most of the rest. That's not actually hugely out of balance.

However, that also really only applies to a fairly small portion of the playerbase. For the majority of the playerbase, a substantial buff to RDM would make them overwhelmingly better than the rest of the dps simply due to ease of play. It's already relatively common to see RDMs topping the chart in the average PUG due to that factor alone. Personally I'd like to see a buff, but I can't really see it happening to any serious degree.

[Tzain]

The problem with buffing RDM is the same as it's always been. RDM is insanely easy to play compared to literally every other dps class. At the top end of gameplay, yeah, it's outperformed substantially (8-10%) by a few of the other dps, and moderately (3-5%) by most of the rest. That's not actually hugely out of balance.

However, that also really only applies to a fairly small portion of the playerbase. For the majority of the playerbase, a substantial buff to RDM would make them overwhelmingly better than the rest of the dps simply due to ease of play. It's already relatively common to see RDMs topping the chart in the average PUG due to that factor alone. Personally I'd like to see a buff, but I can't really see it happening to any serious degree.

I'd be cautious looking at 'ease of play' when comparing Red Mage to other classes.
First, it's a "young" job. Which means it has the level of 'complexity' of a level 50 class. It hasn't had additional mechanics slapped onto it yet with expansions but still has to be level 70. The result is bound to be a 'simplistic style', but if you play a Black Mage at 50 it's not all that different from a complexity point.
Secondly, I think they're aiming for a bit of a 'external' playstyle. I tend to consider playstyles 'internal' when you're focused on your rotation, maintaining buffs, etc. Rather than focusing on reaction gameplay like procs, or supporting/healing party members which I call 'External' gameplay.
Healers are the classic example of 'External Focus'. The players focus is primarily on the group, that focus is like flexing a muscle. They have very simple damage capabilities because doing damage is like relaxing that Focus muscle for them. If you bounce a player too much between External focus and internal focus, you end up exhausting them mentally and many will find the effect jarring or 'unfun' without the ability to articulate why.
I think this is why Red Mage has the style it has. The external focus is related to their ver-cure and ver-raise utility, but their Damage mechanism, being reactionary Proc based, is external as well. The 'focus unflex' is during the melee combo, which is very linear.
Between the 'young-ness' and the 'external focus' Red Mage can be seen as a very simplistic job, I agree. But I think that's going to change quickly as the 'external focus' of their toolkit gets expanded in further updates.
What I doubt ever seeing though, is the addition of 'internal focus' gameplay of adding Rotations or Buff maintenance or Damage over Time.