It's past time, Yoshi-P...

[Fyce]

Now...that said. Tanks can do a fair bit of DPS...but this is a bonus...a secondary goal no more no less. UNLESS - the situation calls for it...as in extreme/savage/ultimate's with a well coordinated party. Of course extra Tanks also permit this. Assuming the main tank is doing his job.

Healers should ALSO contribute DPS - but that is again...a secondary task...if the party is doing well - they should be DPS'ing - but only to the point of not compromising their healing job. Too many healers go stupid in this area and end up running out of mana. Cooldowns be damned - mana is life - don't mess that up.

I just want to comment on the general idea that "dealing damage for tanks and healer is not mandatory" or that it's simply a secondary thing. (I'm not answering directly to NephthysVasudan because the whole post is a complete mess of contradictions making me impossible to know what "side" is taken here. I'm just quoting for the sake of having a reference.)

Your main objective as a team is to reduce the HP of the enemies you fight to zero. This is you main goal no matter your role. It's your goal as a Tank, a Healer or a DPS. All of you share that same objective. This means that your job as a party member is to do everything you can to reach that goal.
If you do not deal damage as a Tank or a Healer when you can, then you are absolutly not contributing like you should as a party member. You are letting other carry the burden that you could've carried yourself.

And that leads to the second reason why the argument of "it's optional" is completly hollow. If you have the option to contribute but aren't doing it because of subjective reasons in the context of a team effort, it simply means that you are a selfish jerk. You are dragging everyone down, when you could go up. If your own personal agenda is to shoot for the lowest possible level, then you should be playing singleplayer games. No exceptions.

In short: if you can do it, you should do it. It cannot be more simple.

I rarely have ever seen complaints against anyone while running dungeons, so dunno :/

The reason why the complains are on the forums and not directly ingame is simple: when you queue for your daily roulette or whatever, if you get a princess healer doing nothing you'll usually not say anything out of the fear of starting a drama with a "you don't pay my sub!" individual. Besides, if that player is Lv.70 and is still playing like that, it's easy to assume that nothing that you'll say will change anything. So, you suck it up and deal with the fact that you are doing a dungeon with a terrible player. There's also the case where you are simply playing with a newbie. It's just not worth the risk.
Whatever the case, it's faster to get it done that way than starting an argument mid-dungeon and having some votekicks thrown around the place. So, yeah... People ingame are more silent about it because it's the best way to handle it live. It doesn't mean that people agree with princess healers (or tanks, but "princess tanks" deal a minimum of damage without even knowing. They're just not effective at doing it). They just silently endure the pain of having to deal with one.

[miraidensetsu]

snip

On the other hand, you don't said anything about those DPS that don't help healers to keep the party alive dodging mechanics or refuse to use the aggro drop abilities to help the tank to keep aggro, steals agro of him or simply pull for him. Are those DPS contributing like they should as a party member? And how about those DPS that don't use their skills to help, for instance, a SMN that outright refuses to raise a fallen member or that BLM that refuses to give some mana to an healer that's under 10% MP? Are they dragging everyone down as well?

If so, why aren't you demanding that level of groupwork from DPS as well? Or it's ok to be the "princess DPS"?

[Taika]

On the other hand, you don't said anything about those DPS that don't help healers to keep the party alive dodging mechanics or refuse to use the aggro drop abilities to help the tank to keep aggro, steals agro of him or simply pull for him. Are those DPS contributing like they should as a party member? And how about those DPS that don't use their skills to help, for instance, a SMN that outright refuses to raise a fallen member or that BLM that refuses to give some mana to an healer that's under 10% MP? Are they dragging everyone down as well?

If so, why aren't you demanding that level of groupwork from DPS as well? Or it's ok to be the "princess DPS"?

I think it's fairly self evident that if someone wants tanks and healers to contribute in DPS because they think that every party member should do their best for the party, they also want DDs to avoid AoEs, RDMs and SMNs helping with raises when needed, BRDs buffing group DPS with Requiem and so on and so on...

[miraidensetsu]

I think it's fairly self evident that if someone wants tanks and healers to contribute in DPS because they think that every party member should do their best for the party, they also want DDs to avoid AoEs, RDMs and SMNs helping with raises when needed, BRDs buffing group DPS with Requiem and so on and so on...

Not that obvious. Maybe that DPS wants do be carried on the back while healers and tanks does all the job. You never know, since everyone turns a blind eye on poor DPS performance if it's not too obvious.

And DPS contributing with buffs or heals or raises is so rare for me that i make sure to commend any DPS who does that. Is so rare that I even find a good run if both DPS just don't eat crap and do enough damage. But, I never had an static, all my experience on party was from duty finder.

[Shurrikhan]

On the other hand, you don't said anything about those DPS that don't help healers to keep the party alive dodging mechanics or refuse to use the aggro drop abilities to help the tank to keep aggro, steals agro of him or simply pull for him. Are those DPS contributing like they should as a party member? And how about those DPS that don't use their skills to help, for instance, a SMN that outright refuses to raise a fallen member or that BLM that refuses to give some mana to an healer that's under 10% MP? Are they dragging everyone down as well?

If so, why aren't you demanding that level of groupwork from DPS as well? Or it's ok to be the "princess DPS"?

For one, they would be, and such refusals are usually only ever given in response to a much stronger prior refusal -- in these cases, typically, the healer's refusal to DPS or use Lucid Dreaming.

I would LOVE to have the ability to perform additional groupwork as DPS.

Responsibilities at present: Gathering, focusing, emergency peeling, support-function rotations, tracking Healer/Tank CDs only in combination with support-function rotations... and rotating properly. Which all, given how shallow content tends to be and how overtuned tanks are, typically amounts to just... rotating properly.

By all means, bring it on. Let Diversion be an actual diversion. Let Goad goad things (enemies, one would assume) significantly. Let me CC things again. I would enjoy this game hugely more if there was more "cross-role" interaction (non-tunnelvisioned toolkits and community perceptions).

[Fyce]

On the other hand, you don't said anything about those DPS that don't help healers to keep the party alive dodging mechanics or refuse to use the aggro drop abilities to help the tank to keep aggro, steals agro of him or simply pull for him. Are those DPS contributing like they should as a party member? And how about those DPS that don't use their skills to help, for instance, a SMN that outright refuses to raise a fallen member or that BLM that refuses to give some mana to an healer that's under 10% MP? Are they dragging everyone down as well?

If so, why aren't you demanding that level of groupwork from DPS as well? Or it's ok to be the "princess DPS"?

In 8300 hours of game time, I have yet to see a SMN/RDM who deliberatly refused to raise because "it's not my job", or a PLD/RDM not using a Clemency or Vercure for the same reason in a clutch situation, or even a DPS who'd say "I won't avoid AoEs because it's not my job". Even using enmity control abilities is argued for optimization way more often than "it's not my job to manage enmity" (but even then, we are talking about being active as much as possible. Taking a single cross skill to press once in a while has nothing to do with the point of sharing team effort when it comes to simply being active as much as possible).

I'm not saying that they don't exist. But the number of these DPS compared to the number of princess healers/tanks is not even close to being comparable.
Your use of "whataboutism" (ie: "What about the others!") completly falls flat. Besides, the behavior of other players doesn't justify yours. Saying "I won't DPS as a healer because one day I saw a SMN who refused to raise!" is absolutly stupid.

[Tridus]

In 8300 hours of game time, I have yet to see a SMN/RDM who deliberatly refused to raise because "it's not my job"

I have. They're outnumbered by the ones that do use it, and the ones that don't use it because they're not used to paying attention to the rest of the party and don't realize someone is dead immediately, but they do exist. I don't lump the "its not my job" and the "I didn't notice someone was dead" people into the same bucket though, because if you only ever play DPS it's honestly pretty easy to not pay much attention to party status. Us healers are watching it like a hawk so it's second nature to just keep doing that when we play RDM.

or a PLD/RDM not using a Clemency or Vercure for the same reason in a clutch situation

I've seen this too, but only once, and it was an RDM. PLD players vary in how often they'll use Clemency if the healers are up, but ones that just refuse if it's that or wipe are virtually unheard of.

or even a DPS who'd say "I won't avoid AoEs because it's not my job".

While nobody says this, I can forgive people who read it into the actions of every DPS who decides that it's more important to finish their cast than it is to get out of the way of the giant death beam.

"it's not my job to manage enmity"

THAT I hear all the time. It's seriously annoying.

There's plenty of bad habits and attitudes to go around amongst all the roles. This "it's my right to be idle!" one happens to be unique to healers, though. Acknowledging that other roles have their own issues doesn't justify healers doing the same.

[miraidensetsu]

snip

What I said is more like "and how about you, DPS that refuses to help or even get out of the crap?" and "why aren't the bad DPS being also called?" than what you think I said. Are you one of those DPS that refuses to help? No? You shouldn't be so mad, I'm not talking about you. But if you're one of those DPS and don't want to admit it, you should start to think what YOU are bringing to the party before point your finger at Tanks or Healers. Or you can just continue on this drama and enjoy the queue.

Wich one are you? Your conscience will tell. I can't respond that because I can't remember to be on the same party as you and I don't know how do you play. About my play style, my conscience is clear. I bring the best judgment I can make either to keep everyone alive as to make the most damage I can (including when begin to cast what).

[Fyce]

What I said is more like "and how about you, DPS that refuses to help or even get out of the crap?" and "why aren't the bad DPS being also called?" than what you think I said. Are you one of those DPS that refuses to help? No? You shouldn't be so mad, I'm not talking about you. But if you're one of those DPS and don't want to admit it, you should start to think what YOU are bringing to the party before point your finger at Tanks or Healers. Or you can just continue on this drama and enjoy the queue.

Wich one are you? Your conscience will tell. I can't respond that because I can't remember to be on the same party as you and I don't know how do you play. About my play style, my conscience is clear. I bring the best judgment I can make either to keep everyone alive as to make the most damage I can (including when begin to cast what).

1. "DPS that refuses to help or even get out of the crap" are almost non-existant. Besides "DPS that refuses to help" can mean everything and nothing.
2. The amount of other stuff a DPS can do to "help" is extremely small compared to the amount of DPS a healer or a tank can bring.
3. This thread is not about "bad" players. A bad player can be someone who tries hard but who won't succeed for some reasons (bad reflexes, bad memory, bad coordination, bad muscle memory, being new to the fight...).
4. It's way more tricky (and risky) to call out a DPS on his/her performances for very obvious reasons.

I'll reiterate my point, since you completly missed it: no matter what role you play, you should always try to be as active as you can while trying to reduce useless stuff like overhealing and overaggro.
That's it. Your whataboutism regarding DPS not getting caught as much as healers and tanks has absolutly no impact on my point. None.

As for the rest of your post, it's completly irrelevant. You are basically asking me if I'm a hypocrite. I'm not. I have principles, and not being a piece of crap is one of them. Thanks for asking.