It's past time, Yoshi-P...

[Hyperia]

The DPS Meta is what made me quit raiding on my WHM of 4 years. Having to maintain perfect timed heals, mechanics, covering for people’s mistakes and high DPS on O4S pushed me past my limits and I just walked away from it, just way too much stress for the reward. SE has made their decision on the matter, you only have to look at the final MSQ dungeon and you will see all the healer NPCs doing DPS rather than healing.

Your all DPS is the new reality, accept it now and it will make it easier on yourself. If you continue to want a pure or semi-pure healer, I suggest you find another game.

I know the thought has crossed my mind a few times...

[Zfz]

I liked 2.0 tanking more when enmity was a bigger concern and people loled at anyone who says "but Riot Blade is higher dps". In 4.0 I quit tanking and now only play as DPS because if I'm going to be focused on dps, I might as well play a real DPS. Same for healer.

Positioning, placement, enmity, survivability. These gameplay elements are unique to the tank job, but the current design has removed the last two.

I'm guessing this design has attracted more players to play tank, though. So it looks like it's here to stay.

[Kaethra]

I'm guessing this design has attracted more players to play tank, though. So it looks like it's here to stay.

Not many understand why there is a lack of tanks in the 4 man queues (the ones where DPS have to wait for up to 45 minutes).

1. Tanking isn't harder.
2. Tanking isn't less enjoyable.
3. There isn't a lack of people who want to play tanks.
4. Tanking isn't the leadership role.

None of those reasons people use.

Endgame disparity. That's the reason.

Alliance raids: 3 Tanks, 6 Healers, 15 DPS. DPS queue is usually under 5 minutes. Everyone's queue is about that due to how many you need (24). Except tanks, tanks have a longer queue due to only needing 3 of them.

Raids, 2 tanks, 2 Healers, and 4 DPS. Should be similar to regular 4 man queues right? Still the 1:1:2 ratio. These are usually statics for the Savage and they've got their tanks. Its the DPS, because they need 2x more of them AND they need good ones to progress that there is a high turnover rate. Many tanks get to 70 and realize they need to roll a DPS or form a new static and find 6 DPS.

Suffice to say.. the game everyone works up to is the 70 game. 1-69 is the journey there. Journey means you don't stay there forever, you eventually reach the destination, then its time to really play the game.

This is why I suggested that we move the 4 man queue for DF (and only for non-premades) to 8 man. And yes it would adjust the HP accordingly to still provide an adequate challenge. And to comment on the one who said they prefer smaller groups. 8 People still quite small compared to 20+. I've played a variety of MMORPGs over the last 20 years. I've worked with group sizes from 3 to 6. They work the same. the only difference is when you get more than 5 is that subroles begin to appear and ADPS becomes more prevalent.

[Tridus]

Not many understand why there is a lack of tanks in the 4 man queues (the ones where DPS have to wait for up to 45 minutes).

Seeing as how it's a common problem across trinity based MMOs, I really don't buy that.

2. Tanking isn't less enjoyable.

All the people who refuse to play one because they find DPS more fun would like disagree with your assessment, as would the people who would rather be going as DPS but don't want to wait in the queue. What is more or less enjoyable is inherently subjective.

3. There isn't a lack of people who want to play tanks.

Simple math suggests otherwise.

Alliance raids: 3 Tanks, 6 Healers, 15 DPS. DPS queue is usually under 5 minutes. Everyone's queue is about that due to how many you need (24). Except tanks, tanks have a longer queue due to only needing 3 of them.

Except that in the first Alliance raid the game added, this wasn't true. It was 6:6:12 for the usual ratio, and it was constantly waiting for tanks. It also turned out to be pretty cumbersome to create fights that actually need six tanks, so you wind up with several of them DPSing the entire run anyway.

They reacted by requiring fewer tanks for Alliance raids because of the problems, and the tank wait in Ivalice isn't all that long.

Raids, 2 tanks, 2 Healers, and 4 DPS. Should be similar to regular 4 man queues right? Still the 1:1:2 ratio. These are usually statics for the Savage and they've got their tanks. Its the DPS, because they need 2x more of them AND they need good ones to progress that there is a high turnover rate. Many tanks get to 70 and realize they need to roll a DPS or form a new static and find 6 DPS.

Looking through the recruitment lists, I don't see it. If you're a competent tank, it's in no way difficult to find a static that needs you. I think you have it backwards more often than not, where a DPS has to switch to tank (or healer) because finding people in that role who will stick around is hard. They've got a lot of options.

This is why I suggested that we move the 4 man queue for DF (and only for non-premades) to 8 man. And yes it would adjust the HP accordingly to still provide an adequate challenge. And to comment on the one who said they prefer smaller groups. 8 People still quite small compared to 20+. I've played a variety of MMORPGs over the last 20 years. I've worked with group sizes from 3 to 6. They work the same. the only difference is when you get more than 5 is that subroles begin to appear and ADPS becomes more prevalent.

Aside from the detail that you'd have to redesign every leveling dungeon in the game to give a second tank something to tank, that wouldn't solve anything. If the goal is to reduce DPS queues by changing group size, the thing you do is increase it to 5 and add a third DPS. Boom, 50% more DPS players getting into dungeons for every tank and healer. And even then, the queue time still wouldn't be eliminated, because when the DPS queue gets short enough, people who wanted to play it but were playing another role for faster queues just switch back. It'd ease that pressure, at least.

[Kaethra]

Aside from the detail that you'd have to redesign every leveling dungeon in the game to give a second tank something to tank, that wouldn't solve anything.

I didn't say to add a second tank. 1 Tank, 1 Healer, 6 DPS. 1 + 1 + 6 = 8

It would reduce DPS queues by 50-75% or more. I could give the math to why that is, but its a bit of a long explanation. Or you could do it yourself. Just start with 5000 players, assume 20% of them are queuing, assume 20 minutes is an average run and you can determine the ratio of DPS/Healers/Tanks that are queuing. Adjust the ratios needed and you'll be able to extrapolate the time reduction.

[Kabzy]

As someone who loves, loves, loves DPSing as a healer, I do strongly agree with the OP. SE need to stop catering to the snowflakes and actually give us harder content to heal and tank through.

Tanks should have to constantly control enmity, rather than making it a party obligation, and damage needs to be tuned up in regular intervals to keep healers healing. There's nothing wrong with tanks/healers adding DPS, but their difficulty should come first and foremost in their primary role. I don't find it satisying DPSing 90% of the fight and throwing out an Indom whenever it's needed. That's basically the end-game for most SCHs right now, and we still end up with 50% overall healing alongside our cohealers. If people couldn't handle the stress of healing or tanking being made a little more difficult, then they shouldn't play that role. It really should be that simple!

On the flipside, if they don't want to make a change, give tanks and healers more intricate DPS rotations. Not quite on the level of DPS, but at least more than DoTs + nuke spam. It's dull.

[Kaethra]

-snip

To be honest. I can't disagree with this.

The tank I normally run with can take all the adds from one boss to another and does so frequently, only stopped by dungeon mechanics that block your way arbitrarily. He jokingly states he does it to see if the healers stop DPSing. Whats sad is sometimes they don't because they don't need to. And on bosses its even less damage (bosses simply don't do the damage of 15-30 trash mobs).

When ARR first came out, and before 2.1, I do remember using Repose and Sleep as Crowd Control. To be honest, I wouldn't mind seeing this return. If it means cutting down trash, to keep the dungeons from being too long, that's not a bad compromise. And one way to do this would be to use ilvl scaling on even leveling dungeons. Even though our level is scaled down, our gear isn't held back too much.

[Vaer]

1. Tanking isn't harder.
2. Tanking isn't less enjoyable.
3. There isn't a lack of people who want to play tanks.
4. Tanking isn't the leadership role.

Disagree. Those reasons are some of the reasons that people don't play tanks. Why wouldn't anyone want to play tanks if they get better rewards (cluster, gil) in a reward centric game if no one had any of those issues with it. This game just makes it easier due to the armoury system to play a different job and still be able to gear the tank while dropping all the possible stress related issues related to tanking that some players have.

Increasing the queue size doesn't really show anything other than there is only 1 tank for every 5 or 6 dps (TBH this is overkill, 1/1/3 is enough) which means... there is a lack of tanks in the first place. Sometimes I get an insane number on the waiting list as dps during primetime but it moves pretty quick so adding another dps slot would drop the times enough where you wouldn't impact the tank or healer queues too much.

Also you would impact smaller groups that just do premades. Now they have to find up to 4 more people just to run a dungeon.

I know how to tank dungeons easily, but I would much rather queue healer or dps if I could unless it is a premade just to not deal with shenanigans.

As for main topic, I don't think they have to rebalance the entire game over stuff that in my experience doesn't even happen very often. I've been playing since launch and I've barely seen anyone in casual content get salty just because the healer or tank isn't playing optimally. Most runs people say hi, do the content with no one saying a word maybe some random jokes, say bye and life goes on.

In EX/Savage maybe, but that's because personal responsibility goes up since everyone has to pull their weight or a clear might not be in reach. These are usually in premade groups anyhow, where there are going to be some sort of requirements in the first place.

[Tridus]

I didn't say to add a second tank. 1 Tank, 1 Healer, 6 DPS. 1 + 1 + 6 = 8

It would reduce DPS queues by 50-75% or more. I could give the math to why that is, but its a bit of a long explanation. Or you could do it yourself. Just start with 5000 players, assume 20% of them are queuing, assume 20 minutes is an average run and you can determine the ratio of DPS/Healers/Tanks that are queuing. Adjust the ratios needed and you'll be able to extrapolate the time reduction.

So then when you get to endgame you suddenly need twice as many tanks and healers as can fit through the levelling dungeons? That's an awful idea. That'll lead to more endgame shortages of those roles by making them harder to get through levelling and create a huge glut of DPS who get to 70 and suddenly discover that it's going to take several times longer to get into everything because so few of them are comparatively needed to form a group.

If you're going to go the route of messing with group sizes, go all out. Change the base party to five and the full party to ten. 50% more DPS slots per tank & healer without hitting a brick wall at 70.

[Tridus]

To be honest. I can't disagree with this.

The tank I normally run with can take all the adds from one boss to another and does so frequently, only stopped by dungeon mechanics that block your way arbitrarily. He jokingly states he does it to see if the healers stop DPSing. Whats sad is sometimes they don't because they don't need to. And on bosses its even less damage (bosses simply don't do the damage of 15-30 trash mobs).

When ARR first came out, and before 2.1, I do remember using Repose and Sleep as Crowd Control. To be honest, I wouldn't mind seeing this return. If it means cutting down trash, to keep the dungeons from being too long, that's not a bad compromise. And one way to do this would be to use ilvl scaling on even leveling dungeons. Even though our level is scaled down, our gear isn't held back too much.

I'd love to see that come back. The reason this "run wall to wall and grab everything" stuff works is because mobs hit like they have nerf swords. Autoattacks do basically nothing to a tank, so you don't feel it without tons of packs hitting you. Experts are pretty badly misnamed because they're so mindless right now. Auran Vale is STILL more dangerous than every expert currently in the game. Running bindly into that first room grabbing everything will get you wiped in short order.

You don't really need to use scaling. It's okay if people overpower stuff eventually. Mobs just need to hit hard enough that having 9 of them hitting you is suicidal instead of annoying, and then we'd see people using CC and pulling more selectively instead of the zerg that we get now.