Hissatsu: Seigan should reduce enmity

[Kabooa]

Anyone not using Third Eye is being a bad Samurai. It's the only way to get to Seigan which is a DPS gain.

It's a dps gain in the way untraited Mercy Stroke was a dps gain.

[Tanathya]

It's a dps gain in the way untraited Mercy Stroke was a dps gain.

It is actually a dps gain whether you like it or not, and the longer the fight, the more evident that gain is.

[Kabooa]

It is actually a dps gain whether you like it or not, and the longer the fight, the more evident that gain is.

I'm not saying it's not a dps gain.

It's just a dps gain in the range of untraited Mercy Stroke.

[Tanathya]

I'm not saying it's not a dps gain.

It's just a dps gain in the range of untraited Mercy Stroke.

Except for the fact that Seigan is almost literally spammable.

[Kabooa]

Except for the fact that Seigan is almost literally spammable.

So spammable. Just a quick look through logs among the top players shows Seigan being used a few times each, and if you look at the amount of additional Shintens they could have used with that Kenki compared to their average hits, the difference in damage gain is about equal to one Ageha.

Which is one Mercy Stroke.

[Lorielle]

The point of the enmity reset is to cause challenge to the tanks. You are talking about O4S, where group communication is key and those difficulties are there for a reason. You might as well be asking for almagest to be made easier because it is tough to heal.

Alright? I mean, I'm not saying that at all...But alright. I feel like you've not really played a high output DPS to really understand what we're getting at.

This is similar to the healer DPS argument. Yes, tanks are supposed to do their best to DPS, but we should not be asking for their primary role to be nerfed in order to accomplish this. I play tank so I can tank things, I am not a DPS. Part of my role is to output as much damage as I can, but tanks should also have some form of challenge regarding incoming damage AND enmity generation, and you are asking for these to be removed.

The challenge for tanks is still there. No one is going to Spam Yaten/Gyoten just cause. It's only there for the sake of "Sheeeeit, I'm top hate. Lemme Enmity Dump!". If I don't need to use Yaten, I won't do it. Same case with Diversion. If I don't need to do it, I won't.

Also, as I pointed out, in many cases, there is no hit to tank DPS at all. The example I was talking about clearly showcases a DRK at maximum DPS capacity maintaining hate fine.

As I said, I can only speak from WAR. You have to realize WAR's DPS rotation is far different from DRK. WAR cannot do a DPS combo and maintain hate where as a DRK does better job at that. If WAR goes into Enmity, they are losing DPS. Period. God forbid if Main/Storm's Eye falls off during that time. You lose two buffs AND lose out on Beast Gauge. Not all tanks play the same. Do remember this.

Dying to mechanics happens as well, should we remove mechanics? What should be happening is that the OT should be watching the MT like a hawk and provoking if they die, the only other scenario would be if both tanks need to be alive (like when adds are present), at which point you arent dying because you are a SAM, you are dying because the MT died.

So, you remember how Provoke works, yes? It only places you at the top of the list(above the Samurai), but if the Samurai if putting out high DPS fairly quickly, you're not going to have time to provide the enmity build to secure your hate in the heat of the moment. Where as Dragoon can HELP with Elusive Jump and Samurai, can hey, ENMITY DUMP. Oh we can just stop DPSing for a second so you can maintain hate too. But then that hurts our DPS.

Like I said, I understand why people want it, but the solution should be on the tank side, not the DPS side.

I don't see the issue in having more options for safety. May as well remove Shade/Smoke/Shirk/Lucid if you really feel that way.

So spammable. Just a quick look through logs among the top players shows Seigan being used a few times each, and if you look at the amount of additional Shintens they could have used with that Kenki compared to their average hits, the difference in damage gain is about equal to one Ageha.

Which is one Mercy Stroke.

I assume you were just adding on to me saying it was a DPS gain in another way? I mean, if you're doing Seigan enough it's a little more than one Ageha. But if you want to say that's 'about' one, then sure. Either way, this seems a little redundant to talk about overall when you agreed with the point from the get go.

[Kabooa]

I assume you were just adding on to me saying it was a DPS gain in another way? I mean, if you're doing Seigan enough it's a little more than one Ageha. But if you want to say that's 'about' one, then sure. Either way, this seems a little redundant to talk about overall when you agreed with the point from the get go.

Originally I was just pointing out it's a negligible damage gain. Not arguing that it's a damage gain, just a negligible one. Definitely not enough to cement someone as a 'bad samurai'.

[Lorielle]

Originally I was just pointing out it's a negligible damage gain. Not arguing that it's a damage gain, just a negligible one. Definitely not enough to cement someone as a 'bad samurai'.

I would disagree with that remark because you're neglecting an entire aspect of your kit to help boost your DPS slightly. But if you feel that way, that's up to you.

[Kabooa]

I would disagree with that remark because you're neglecting an entire aspect of your kit to help boost your DPS slightly. But if you feel that way, that's up to you.

For the sake of the argument.

Over a 5 minute duration, if you could use Seigan at every opportunity, you get 20.

20 Seigans
300 Kenki
4000 Potency

If you don't, it's 12 Shintens you could use instead

12 Shintens
300 Kenki
3600 Potency

Over 5 minutes, it amounts to 4 extra auto attacks. Unless you're diving into avoidable damage, realistically you're only going to get, maybe, 4-5 over this duration

5 Seigan
75 Kenki
1000 Potency

3 Shinten
75 Kenki
900 Potency

The difference is 100 potency. 1 auto attack.

[Lorielle]

Math Stuff

Sure. Okay. And that works out. For quick and short fights.

Now let's try fights that actually have a longer duration. Is the damage still negligible?

You can use math all you want by the way...The point is, you are still neglecting your kit to RAISE YOUR DPS. That is why it is seen as "bad samurai play". What's the point in doing low potency attacks that are OGCD? They're pretty negligible too.