Hissatsu: Seigan should reduce enmity

[Hruodig]

For 8 man content, shirk is the answer to all the problems in this thread. Shirk ensures that your resident high performing monk/samurai never takes aggro, while both tanks can stay in dps stance the entire fight. Shirk is invaluable. Teach your dps to use diversion, teach your tanks to make effective use of shirk.

[Lorielle]

Shirk is not -always- the answer. It -helps- but there's going to be points where the Samurai is still nipping at heels. I've done this numerous times with my static to the point that my Dragoon sometimes pulls away from giving me Eye due to potentially ripping hate. Diversion does nothing because a good Samurai practically out DPS's its effectiveness.

I wouldn't say put Enmity Dump on Seigan because we spam that move on unavoidable damage(or good Samurai should be). Rather, it should be attached to something like Yaten(somewhat similar to Elusive Jump). The only time you use Yaten in any fight is literally if you cannot run away quick enough or the break between that GCD and the next is long enough for you to run back and start up again. As such, putting it on Yaten would make us use Yaten/Gyoten a lot more.

[Azerhan]

Or in Third Eye.
I don't see a lot of Sam using it, maybe they think it's useless. So put a enmity dump on it should be cool.

[Lorielle]

Or in Third Eye.
I don't see a lot of Sam using it, maybe they think it's useless. So put a enmity dump on it should be cool.

Anyone not using Third Eye is being a bad Samurai. It's the only way to get to Seigan which is a DPS gain.

[Lambdafish]

Shirk is not -always- the answer. It -helps- but there's going to be points where the Samurai is still nipping at heels. I've done this numerous times with my static to the point that my Dragoon sometimes pulls away from giving me Eye due to potentially ripping hate. Diversion does nothing because a good Samurai practically out DPS's its effectiveness.

When is shirk not the answer? In my static, our DRK can turn off grit and still maintain hate from our SAM if I am giving out shirks, I'm really not seeing what peoples problems are.

[Azerhan]

@ Lorielle : yes, that's what I want to say. I see a lot of bad Sam in the game, not using Third Eye, which is a very great skill. I just want them to use this ability more...
@L Lambdafish : if you're playing in a team that you know, you know how they play and stuff. But if your playing with a player that you don't know, sometime Shirk is not the answer.
Sometime, when I'm playing Sam, I take hate, or if the Tank dying, I'm the one who takes automatically hate. They aren't bad, just I'm doing my job almost well, and my ilvl is quite higher than their.

[Lambdafish]

@L Lambdafish : if you're playing in a team that you know, you know how they play and stuff. But if your playing with a player that you don't know, sometime Shirk is not the answer.
Sometime, when I'm playing Sam, I take hate, or if the Tank dying, I'm the one who takes automatically hate. They aren't bad, just I'm doing my job almost well, and my ilvl is quite higher than their.

That is the reason that my DRK can play without grit, yes, however that doesn't put any responsibility on the SAM for managing enmity. It is the tanks job to watch their hate list and perform their combos accordingly. The sheer fact that it is possible for my DRK to keep hate from a SAM without grit shows that tanks have enough hate generation to combat SAMs. The solution is simply for tanks to get better, use their oaths, use their hate combos, and for the group to utilise skills like shirk, diversion, shadewalker etc. and if the tank loses hate to the SAM, that is that tanks fault.

I know it sounds like I am arguing against something that seemingly has no drawbacks, but for me it does. Adding this functionality to SAM takes away from my experience as a tank. If SAM has this then my job as a tank is easier, and thus I have less to do in my role. I don't like the tank DPS meta, where tanks should be in DPS stance all the time, and this change will inevitably promote that mentality more than it already has been.

[Lorielle]

When is shirk not the answer? In my static, our DRK can turn off grit and still maintain hate from our SAM if I am giving out shirks, I'm really not seeing what peoples problems are.

Again, there are points where Shirk is NOT available and the Samurai is nipping at the heels in Enmity. I've done it. It's not unheard of. With fights with Enmity resets, it makes the rotation a little wonky at times(Exdeath). However, YES, you are right that these tanks do need to use their hate combos more often, this I do agree with. HOWEVER, when you do this, guess what else suffers? Tank DPS. This is something that is indirectly being pushed towards with the introduction of Shadewalker/Smokescreen which is why tanks clamor for it. So they can continue to DPS without returning to their Tank Stances. It really only matters in prolong fights honestly. Short fights it doesn't typically matter or fights with multiple targets(Shinryu).

I only clamor for an enmity dump because it DOES happen and there's really nothing I can do about it. If the MT dies by some chance too, guess who dies next? Me.

[NintenPyjak64]

As someone already pointed out, both Dragoon and Ninja can cut their aggro instantly, alongside using Diversion if necessary.

Haven't touched NIN (seriously) since 2.xx, what is the Enmity dump they have? If there is one, the old NIN from my static never used it (he was riding my hate about as good as people in this thread are saying SAM does)

[Lambdafish]

Again, there are points where Shirk is NOT available and the Samurai is nipping at the heels in Enmity. I've done it. It's not unheard of.

And as a tank, it is these challenges that make me want to play tank. If I have to keep an eye on my enmity combo because the SAM is on my heels, then I use whatever tools I have at my disposal, I rarely use RoH combo on PLD, and that is when I would use that, shirk is available, id ask NIN for a shadewalker, and yes, I would ask for a shirk.

With fights with Enmity resets, it makes the rotation a little wonky at times(Exdeath).

The point of the enmity reset is to cause challenge to the tanks. You are talking about O4S, where group communication is key and those difficulties are there for a reason. You might as well be asking for almagest to be made easier because it is tough to heal.

HOWEVER, when you do this, guess what else suffers? Tank DPS. This is something that is indirectly being pushed towards with the introduction of Shadewalker/Smokescreen which is why tanks clamor for it. So they can continue to DPS without returning to their Tank Stances. It really only matters in prolong fights honestly. Short fights it doesn't typically matter or fights with multiple targets(Shinryu).

This is similar to the healer DPS argument. Yes, tanks are supposed to do their best to DPS, but we should not be asking for their primary role to be nerfed in order to accomplish this. I play tank so I can tank things, I am not a DPS. Part of my role is to output as much damage as I can, but tanks should also have some form of challenge regarding incoming damage AND enmity generation, and you are asking for these to be removed.

Also, as I pointed out, in many cases, there is no hit to tank DPS at all. The example I was talking about clearly showcases a DRK at maximum DPS capacity maintaining hate fine.

I only clamor for an enmity dump because it DOES happen and there's really nothing I can do about it. If the MT dies by some chance too, guess who dies next? Me.

Dying to mechanics happens as well, should we remove mechanics? What should be happening is that the OT should be watching the MT like a hawk and provoking if they die, the only other scenario would be if both tanks need to be alive (like when adds are present), at which point you arent dying because you are a SAM, you are dying because the MT died.


Like I said, I understand why people want it, but the solution should be on the tank side, not the DPS side.