DRK Consolidated Feedback Thread

[Chrono_Rising]

This is how often the class is run in savage, not damage stats.

[SyzzleSpark]

How is DRK damage so low? I thought it was only a fairly modest DPS difference (although still significant)

Those aren't DPS numbers, they're usage numbers. DPS numbers have DRK about 100DPS behind PLD and 200-300DPS behind WAR, depending on percentile.

As I've said in other threads, the reason usage numbers are so important is that they show that there isn't something particularly special that makes up for DRK's low DPS. If DRK's DPS was the only problem, but it excelled in certain other areas, DRK would be much closer to the other two in usage. Its so far behind because WAR and PLD just do everything better, even if only slightly.

The usage statistics are also completely unaffected by percentile, and so they are completely unrelated to meta, speed runs, prog, etc. (i.e. the argument "don't listen to the meta" doesn't apply. these numbers factor in everyone, meta-conscious or not). Its just everybody who is raiding, no matter how good or bad they are, or why they're doing it. It illustrates something of a rejection of the job by the community.

[jameseoakes]

Those aren't DPS numbers, they're usage numbers. DPS numbers have DRK about 100DPS behind PLD and 200-300DPS behind WAR, depending on percentile.

As I've said in other threads, the reason usage numbers are so important is that they show that there isn't something particularly special that makes up for DRK's low DPS. If DRK's DPS was the only problem, but it excelled in certain other areas, DRK would be much closer to the other two in usage. Its so far behind because WAR and PLD just do everything better, even if only slightly.

The usage statistics are also completely unaffected by percentile, and so they are completely unrelated to meta, speed runs, prog, etc. Its just everybody who is raiding, no matter how good or bad they are, or why they're doing it. It illustrates something of a rejection of the job by the community.

My bad sorry, hmm that is quite a big difference. Are there statistics of the DRK play rate at none savage end game?

[SyzzleSpark]

In non-savage end-game the data is going to tell slightly less pointed story, as the content is older, people care less about what they are running, are more likely to run the content on alt jobs, farm for drops on certain jobs, etc. But DRK is still at the bottom across the board here as well. You can poke around on flogs to find all of these numbers for yourself as well, so don't just take my word for it. (not going to directly link to the site on the OF, though.)

Over 2 weeks:

Rabanastre:
Warrior 7,539
Paladin 10,591
Dark Knight 6,661

Susano:
Warrior 1,245
Paladin 1,601
Dark Knight 1,092

Lakshmi:
Warrior 815
Paladin 933
Dark Knight 654

Shinryu:
Warrior 3,915
Paladin 4,752
Dark Knight 2,042

[Chrono_Rising]

I don't know where to post this but I would like to just point out something. I notice people telling us that our dps only matters in speed runs and if you are at the top 1%. While higher dps is important in those instances I would like to point out that this is not an issue which only effects that 1%.

Dark Knight dps, and thus one of the factors people consider when choosing a tank, is behind at all levels of play. This is not a 1% issue, your dps does matter, and while not as pronounced at lower percentiles, you can still expect to be behind paladin by 100 to 150 dps and behind warrior by 200 to 300 at most percentiles. Don't let people tell you it doesn't matter, because quite frankly it does. If I could find 200 dps on my dragoon (I should try jumping into less aoe) I would be doing everything in my power to find it.

I also notice people are commenting about warrior buffs, and pointing out the inconsistencies of the highest tank feeling it needs more damage. But I've noticed a steep decline in conversation in dark threads about buffs. We need to keep the conversation going as much as possible.

[SyzzleSpark]

I also notice people are commenting about warrior buffs, and pointing out the inconsistencies of the highest tank feeling it needs more damage. But I've noticed a steep decline in conversation in dark threads about buffs. We need to keep the conversation going as much as possible.

WF combined with Xeno's ridiculous interview (where he says that utility should be balanced by damage while in the same paragraph implying that WAR should deal more damage than DRK in spite of also having better utility) has encouraged a lot of gaslighting towards DRK's asking for buffs. I'm honestly not sure how to combat that, short of writing a literal scholastic essay covering every single aspect of balance between the tanks with DPS, mitigation, and utility gains/discrepancies fully and completely mathed out with statistics and parses to back the data up (which we have, but I guess no one person has time to compile it all).

When I saw the WAR buff threads pop up I was like really? Is this a thing that is actually happening right now? Did I slip into some extraplanar dimension of quantum inversion? Was the removal of half of your gauge costs and the addition of a free party shield not enough? To which they'd all say "well those were fixes to stuff that never should have been broken" implying that everything that is currently busted right now about DRK is exactly as it should be, which - I don't even know what to call that, other than an insult.

[jameseoakes]

When I saw the WAR buff threads pop up I was like really? Is this a thing that is actually happening right now? Did I slip into some extraplanar dimension of quantum inversion?

I think there will be a group of WAR players who won't be happy until WAR is again required in every party and that 3.0 was well balanced for the tank jobs

Also those end game play rates still look pretty bad, I had wondered if it's play rates where quite good in the dungeons and the like it might give SE the impression that it's still popular despite it's issues in high level content which might explain there slow response to the requests for buffs.

[Valdegarde]

I thought the whole point of that sarcastic Shake It Off thread was bitterness towards the fact that everyone seems to accept that it's more likely Warrior will have any outstanding minor issues complained about addressed before Dark Knight receives anything other than extremely small potency buffs. This is, in fact, our dimension.

And I actually agree with a lot of what Xeno brought up, I'm not sure it was explicitly said that he wanted damage buffs for Warrior, moreso that it should be redistributed to be more stable across a fight, lowering the skill ceiling. However, the way the community takes this is in a very different direction indeed...

Edit: I reread it, and he does mention "Both of the other tanks have more utility than Dark Knight, so Dark Knight needs some potency increases so they can do more damage. That’s all they need." By his logic, Dark Knight should be doing astronomically higher damage than Warrior.

[Chrono_Rising]

snip

Agreed, both conversations are necessary, I just mean to say we cannot afford to let one conversation go (buffing dark knight) while pointing out that warrior has 3 full time buffs before even looking at berserk to augment its damage. The "argument" in the interview was very cherry picked as far as details.

I think it would be great to put up a full analysis of dark knight backed up with statistics.as its own post. Maybe people have ignored it in the past?

[Valdegarde]

Well even in the Shake it Off thread there were serious responses, haha. The sarcasm was prompted from reality, after all.

And yes, that's using the logic in the interview that currently complaining Warriors are glossing over.

I feel differently, in that +/- 200-400 DPS of eachother is an annoying fact of life that should be adjusted for identity's sake, but it's the actual abilities and interaction with the party that Dark Knight needs an extreme makeover with.

Of course, there's a basic skeleton that everyone seems to agree upon (Dark Passenger, TBN extension, Shadow Wall recast, etc.) so continued ignorance of just the easy absolute basic necessity changes is by far the most insulting thing, let alone admitting there's more extensive work to be done.