Built-in Parsers

[Xlantaa]

The only way to reduce to minimum the parse impact is making the abuse (abuse in ANY possible way, that includes kick or discrimination on a player for underperfoming) punishable:

Any party which kick form a duty (ANY DUTY) because numbers are not good for them (ANY number, under-performing or not).
Any party who deliberately discriminate in PF, prohibiting player form join if not enough DPS for them, even if that player can complete the duty.
Any person who mock or harass a player because his numbers.
Any player who upload the data to a third party site (FFLogs type), specially if not have the party member consent.

This is the only way to make the parser safe. But most of you will argue with the "why I can't kick the under-performing player?". If you think this, you DON'T WANT a parse to see statistics and help improve, you want it to exclude people.

A parser without limits will work only in the Happy Rainbow Land where everyone is a good person and is full of Ponnies and Moogles. But we know that is not the case, so it is necessary a lot of restrictions.

It is very hard to accomplish without cause a heavy gap on the community.Isolating players with no enough skill from others (that already happen, but this will cause a even bigger gap).

The majority of player base consider good being able to beat a duty, not the damage deal on them. Most people come to play and not worry much about things. Making a tool that can be potentially used to cause a negative atmosphere will cause that player stop play this game. Since majority are ignoring the parsing, the amount of player that can be lost due this will cause a heavy lost in money for SE. it is not only morality and education, it also also economic. Those player you mock, harass, kick because number are paying this game too. If they stop play, you know what will happen. A player who cannot play or is discriminate will stop play. They won't think "oh, maybe I can improve my DPS and I won't be kicked!", most of them they just stop play.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

The only way to reduce to minimum the parse impact is making the abuse (abuse in ANY possible way, that includes kick or discrimination on a player for underperfoming) punishable:

Any party which kick form a duty (ANY DUTY) because numbers are not good for them (ANY number, under-performing or not).
Any party who deliberately discriminate in PF, prohibiting player form join if not enough DPS for them, even if that player can complete the duty.
Any person who mock or harass a player because his numbers.
Any player who upload the data to a third party site (FFLogs type), specially if not have the party member consent.

This is the only way to make the parser safe. But most of you will argue with the "why I can't kick the under-performing player?". If you think this, you DON'T WANT a parse to see statistics and help improve, you want it to exclude people.

A parser without limits only will work only in the Happy Rainbow Land where everyone is a good person and is full of Ponnies and Moogles. But we know that is not, so it is necessary a lot of restrictions.

It is very hard to accomplish without cause a heavy gap on the community.Isolating players with no enough skill from others (that already happen, but this will cause a even bigger gap).

Just a quick note on the first and last ones, we certainly don't want to punish players by having them HAVE to keep someone in party who's underperforming, for fear of punishment, nor discourage them from making use of FFLogs. For example, I've never given my consent to my static members uploading parses, so anything goes up, good or bad, and being that I don't (can't) parse, I generally have no say on it, lest I restrict everyone's numbers from being uploaded. Perhaps my absolute worst run was someone's best, and I wouldn't want to deny them that.

[Xlantaa]

Just a quick note on the first and last ones, we certainly don't want to punish players by having them HAVE to keep someone in party who's underperforming, for fear of punishment, nor discourage them from making use of FFLogs. For example, I've never given my consent to my static members uploading parses, so anything goes up, good or bad, and being that I don't (can't) parse, I generally have no say on it, lest I restrict everyone's numbers from being uploaded. Perhaps my absolute worst run was someone's best, and I wouldn't want to deny them that.

This a a FFLOGs problem, since the page has not private options, (the only one is you can hide data for your character). But that not prevent form data upload. That web need more tools to configure and allow only what you want to show, limit for example to only you static members. And ignore/erase any parser you don't want, but without block others form upload their data, just ignoring yours. FFlogs needs much more private options, but that's a third party site and it has no place in this thread discussion.

[kikix12]

Ultimately, as an MMO, this game is "public domain". Whatever you do within, your numbers, your chat...all of it is "public" to a greater or lesser degree. Square Enix itself shows a surprising lot of information about players through lodestone.

As such, consent for sharing public information is not really required. That applies both in real world and in this, and there are very few limitations on what information is excluded (largely offensive or intimate one) from this freedom.

Parsers and the corresponding logs thusly are in no way restricted by regulations of any sort (whether or not that is "proper" is another thing entirely). It's just a matter of Square Enix not wanting to take chances on the possibility of them affecting the community negatively, while still requiring time and money to develop.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

This a a FFLOGs problem, since the page has not private options, (the only one is you can hide data for your character). But that not prevent form data upload. That web need more tools to configure and allow only what you want to show, limit for example to only you static members. And ignore/erase any parser you don't want, but without block others form upload their data, just ignoring yours. FFlogs needs much more private options, but that's a third party site and it has no place in this thread discussion.

I noted before that people are very much selective about what numbers go up. I simply noted that in my case, unless I hide my own (which has its own implications), or request that my entire team's parses not be uploaded if somehow my specific numbers aren't great, I simply have to let whatever goes up stand and speak for me. For that reason, and others unimportant to the topic at hand, I care very little for what goes up there. I DO care if my team and I perform well, but anyone trying to progress can see that right in front of them when it's happening. I'd agree it could use more tools, but largely, it's not the data and management that needs work, it's the players and how they choose to use it. I know that may be stepping on toes a bit to say that, but let's not act like we haven't seen examples of what I mean in this very topic itself.

[Oscura]

The only way to reduce to minimum the parse impact is making the abuse (abuse in ANY possible way, that includes kick or discrimination on a player for underperfoming) punishable:

Any party which kick form a duty (ANY DUTY) because numbers are not good for them (ANY number, under-performing or not).
Any party who deliberately discriminate in PF, prohibiting player form join if not enough DPS for them, even if that player can complete the duty.
Any person who mock or harass a player because his numbers.
Any player who upload the data to a third party site (FFLogs type), specially if not have the party member consent.

Kicking someone from a PF group is not abuse. Let's get that out of the way right now. If someone as the leader of their PF decides they hate the glamour, race, name, or server of a person, they are in their right to kick that person. It may make them a jerk, or anything like that, but it is not against the rules and it is not abuse. Anyone can make a party finder group, so it is not like you are being directly excluded because you cannot join one person's party.

There are already parties that discriminate in PF, demanding high dps or consistent dps from other players. We don't even have an official parser in game yet people will still demand these things and kick anyone who doesn't meet their criteria.

Mocking and harassing people over numbers is already punishable and even if a parser becomes official it will still be punishable.

FFlogs will always realistically be a grey area regardless of how anyone feels about it.

My main issue with this post is that it implies kicking anyone for their DPS or for underperforming or holding the group back is "abuse," or as if it's morally wrong. Even today, people are kicked from party finder groups, duty finder groups, etc, for many other reasons that more or less qualify for the same thing. Not being able to dodge AoEs. Not being able to meet heal checks as a healer. Not properly managing or using cooldowns at all as tanks. Failing the same mechanic every time the user is given that mechanic, the list goes on. Parsing and damage numbers should not be excluded from this list, just because it bruises people's fragile egos. To take a hard stance that "no one should be kicked for their DPS numbers at any point," you are essentially arguing that no one should be kicked from any content period for any reason at all, because the person would feel bad about it. You cannot argue that someone is more justified in kicking someone for not meeting a heal check and then say that the same person can't kick someone for not meeting a DPS check. It's a literal contradiction.

[Nezia]

snip

Hey .
Here.
Pst.
Here here!
I will tell you a secret!
Most PC players that do ex/savage content run parsers, yet Gridania is not on fire. Don't tell anyone, k?

[Estelle9lives]

This is the only way to make the parser safe. But most of you will argue with the "why I can't kick the under-performing player?". If you think this, you DON'T WANT a parse to see statistics and help improve, you want it to exclude people.

This is an absolutely terrible attitude to have.

It's not a matter of excluding people, if you are under performing badly for the end game content you signed up for, I'm sorry but you have no place there - specially on a party that already has 7 other people ready to clear and are being held back by a single individual. In this case said player should take a step back, and do their research on their job.. Everyone has the right to learn, but no one has a right to ruin other people's fun and make the instance a frustrating experience. Excluding people already happens with the current parse, so that point is moot. What I would like is for people to be able to see their numbers and have a drive to improve, as many seem to be ignorant on how bad they are doing.

I helped some people clear O1S and there were instances where I was outdps'ing actual DPS players on a White Mage. This is also a common occurence on Ex Roulette - I'm not expecting people to perform at world level on roulettes, of course, but being able to outdps your healer in single target damage is the bare minimum I'd ask. Maybe - just maybe if they could see their actual numbers they'd think "damn, I could do better".

The majority of player base consider good being able to beat a duty, not the damage deal on them. Most people come to play and not worry much about things. Making a tool that can be potentially used to cause a negative atmosphere will cause that player stop play this game. Since majority are ignoring the parsing, the amount of player that can be lost due this will cause a heavy lost in money for SE. it is not only morality and education, it also also economic. Those player you mock, harass, kick because number are paying this game too. If they stop play, you know what will happen. A player who cannot play or is discriminate will stop play. They won't think "oh, maybe I can improve my DPS and I won't be kicked!", most of them they just stop play.

Why exactly do people think making parses official is suddenly going to transform everyone into a complete jerk? This tool is already widely used. You act as every higher performance player who does a roulette goes around kicking people because they didn't reach 99% of their damage potential. As long as SE keep their policy of no harassment regarding DPS numbers (which is VERY strict, mind you), I think people's attitudes would hardly change.

[akaneakki]

This is an absolutely terrible attitude to have.

If you think this, you DON'T WANT a parse to see statistics and help improve, you want it to exclude people.

Not only is this a horrible attitude but this also breeds bad players. It's pretty much saying; hey it's okay to be bad so we gonna do it for ya. If someone is a bad performer they can't be in the group, knowing this person can't either do mechanics or dps or both. It's simple. When 7 people can do it why can't the last one too? Like honestly too many players in the game let the bad players get away, thats also a reason why many are bad in the first place. Second reason is when they actually get told, they will think we are just saying it to offend them. There is so many reasons for why they think it's offensive but there is clearly one that makes them believe so: Players who say it's fine to be bad and let them keep doing it.