Dusting off the Tome: Summoner Feedback for 4.1

[zuzu-bq]

And if they do it right, like they did with Bard, there won't be 30+ threads complaining what's wrong with it.

Meanwhile many people complain BRD lost their cast bars. Its a no win situation where the "right" is appease the majority of people crying on forums even if they have no reason at all.

[Karshan]

Its a no win situation where the "right" is appease the majority of people crying on forums even if they have no reason at all.

No reason ? You like a job for three years, they change it, you don't like anymore, and there is no problem with that ? What is wrong with you ? Is it expected of us to say to Square "ok slap me in the face, I like it rough" ?

Flana said it all. There is a wheel of successive phases, but not a flow as in "correct your mistakes midflight". in HS you forgot Rouse for 8 seconds, use it now, no problem just lost 8 seconds. Here ? well too bad it's Bahamut time, wait 28 seconds.

Once again, no problem on a dummy, in an actual fight, with downtimes sometimes 15 seconds that completely mess up the wheel ? Man better buckle up and know the fight by heart to be of any use to your team.

Not saying other classes don't have problems as well, and I think of BLM too for you guys. But that doesn't mean SMN is fixed now.

[Ariomi]

Meanwhile many people complain BRD lost their cast bars. Its a no win situation where the "right" is appease the majority of people crying on forums even if they have no reason at all.

I would like to see one thread saying they miss Bard cast bars. I looked through about 30 pages of the english forums. I could not find a single Topic saying "Pls give cast bars back"

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...oving-Bard-now

I found threads discussing it, but not a single post of people wanting casts bars and losing their mobility.

[zuzu-bq]

About the "not feeling like Summoner" people keep saying since ARR. I got it, but now you actually have a temporary big summon to do mid fight. Wasn't that the most required Summon-like aspect? Just actually trying to understand it here. I also felt SMN wasn't very Summonery previosuly but I just accepted it as how it worked to implement it on the game. Kind of like how Red Mage isn't exectly the iconic hybrid job. I think people would feel a lot more the Summoner feel if they finally implemented the ever promissed never delivered Egi glamours "every patch after Stormblood" heh. As for the dot-job, they kind of had already been dethroned on that by BRD, but I understand how people feel about the loss on dot management aspect. If anything, this loss made the job a bit less easy to understand going from 0 because the whole game used to be "never clip dots" and now you can use dot clipping for gains. But I also think a new player might not have as many issues as we have with these stuff, we mostly have them because we been following the game for a while and adapting some times can take a while.

I found threads discussing it, but not a single post of people wanting casts bars and losing their mobility.

Anyone that fails to see BRD had close to free mobility on HW can't ever understand why cast bars weren't bad. While I do agree no cast bars feels better to play, cast bars were not a bad design by themselves. And like I said, the "right" is appeasing this majority that like without cast bars so yeah SE was right on removing them. But oh sorry I forgot it's a taboo to have a slightly unpopular opinion here. While most feedback on OF of Bard have been about being glad on the loss of cast bars, people in other medias and in game do miss it, but most of them are ok with it and don't think its worth to complain about it. Its like what Kumi said about adapting even to aspects you didn't like that much.

[Ariomi]

Anyone that fails to see BRD had close to free mobility on HW can't ever understand why cast bars weren't bad. While I do agree no cast bars feels better to play, cast bars were not a bad design by themselves. And like I said, the "right" is appeasing this majority that like without cast bars so yeah SE was right on removing them. But oh sorry I forgot it's a taboo to have a slightly unpopular opinion here. While most feedback on OF of Bard have been about being glad on the loss of cast bars, people in other medias and in game do miss it, but most of them are ok with it and don't think its worth to complain about it. Its like what Kumi said about adapting even to aspects you didn't like that much.

There's one problem with your logic here. Bard never started out as a class with hotbars. From 0-50 Castbars weren't a thing that existed. And when Heavensward happened, the gameplay change was such drastically different, that it caused an uproar. The class that everyone had until 50 became fundamentally different. And not everyone knew about using Feint for mobility. Eventually Square Fenix fixed this, by removing cast bars from Machinist and Bard.

This can also be said exactly in the same case for Summoner. Suddenly Summoner only has 2 dots instead of 4, and the balance between dots and normal spells have become completely one sided. And while summoning Bahamut is thematically better, they still could have kept Summoner more inline to what people enjoyed. Having Demi Bahamut function similarly to Dreadwyrm trance, and keeping the rest of the class relatively the same would have had people much happier then the iteration we have now.

[zuzu-bq]

The same cannot be said for Summoner, because the very progression of the job was changed to accomodate the changes, so instead of living in 3 dots during a certain range of levels, you always have two now. You used MCH in the middle of the argument while the job was launched with cast bars but just following the "no cast til 52" concept of Bard and then followed saying SMN problem is the same even though it got essentially changed down to earlier levels? I think we should stop here friend and go back to good things pointed out on the OP. The discussion between you and me won't do anything but make this thread longer.

[Ariomi]

The same cannot be said for Summoner, because the very progression of the job was changed to accomodate the changes, so instead of living in 3 dots during a certain range of levels, you always have two now.

Your argument makes no sense at all. All classes unlock new combos abilities at certain levels. Taking away Summoner's dots is like removing a melee combo from drg/ninja/etc.
You don't see how that's a fundamental change? A class that had Four Gcd dots,(Shadowflare, Bio 2, Miasma, Bio 1 and some people even used Miasma 2 in the opener) fundamentally changed to two, is fundamentally as big of a change bard/mch getting cast bars with Wanderer's minuet/gauss cannon. (Atleast you could turn off wanderer's minuet/gauss canon. I can't get any of my dots back.)

Smn is not remotely the same. If You applied every dot summoner had, it would take 11 seconds, then you refresh each dot 6 seconds before the next. (Reapply after 18 seconds, reapply after 24, reapply after 30.)

Smn now spends almost no time applying it's dots. 3 seconds at the most. This has immensely changed the class. (Reapply all dots instantly after 30 seconds)

So your argument makes no factual sense and is completely wrong.

[zuzu-bq]

I actually said it was a fundamental change done in a different way so you cannot compare them the same. But you insist in doing so. I also said since we cannot agree ever we should simply agree to disagree with eachother. Oh yeah there is a thread saying they love SMN by the way, since you love "thread proof".