Core Issues With 4.x Dark Knight

[Daniel_Fury]

Or they could think BloodSpiller is so powerful that it's a neat DPS increase to spam TBN anytime you can just to proc it...

That was my thoughts on SEs view of the dummy hp as well.

[Chrono_Rising]

A little question on those numbers. Do they take into account who really tanks ?
For example, in O1S, you don't need to tank swap, so you can have a DRK main tanking the whole fight while the PLD or WAR stays out of tank stance. And since DRK brings basically nothing by being an off tank, I'd say it would be a pretty common situation.

I don't have a way to seperate out those numbers easily. However, just a quick look at a turn where there are forced tank swaps (v2s and ex death) and the same trend continues so I don't think this is the correct explanation. This may not mean much but I have personal experience on both classes, and nothing in my personal experience suggests turtle dark > turtle paladin. As SyzzleSpark points out, the data supports the opposite claim more. No data I can think of justifies the claim turtle dark > turtle paladin in any actual turn or encounter, and what I do have suggests turtle paladin > turtle dark. By all means if you have something which supports the claim turtle dark > turtle paladin please share.

Or they could think BloodSpiller is so powerful that it's a neat DPS increase to spam TBN anytime you can just to proc it...

This is definately a lack of awarenss.

[Reynhart]

I don't have a way to seperate out those numbers. However, just a quick look at a turn where there are forced tank swaps (v2s and ex death) and the same trend continues.

It might have something to do with PLD having a powerful ranged attack, allowing it to lose less DPS when it's forced to stay away from the boss. Something we can't really calculate by just looking at raw potencies.

This may not mean much but I have personal experience on both classes, and nothing in my personal expierence suggests turtle dark > turtle paladin. Nothing I can think of justifies the claim in any actual turn.

To be fair, even if Turtle DRK would deal more damage than Turtle PLD (Or Turtle WAR), since turtle tanking is basically an inefficient tactic in current content, it wouldn't do anything to make DRK "better".

[Chrono_Rising]

It might have something to do with PLD having a powerful ranged attack, allowing it to lose less DPS when it's forced to stay away from the boss. Something we can't really calculate by just looking at raw potencies.

To be fair, even if Turtle DRK would deal more damage than Turtle PLD (Or Turtle WAR), since turtle tanking is basically an inefficient tactic in current content, it wouldn't do anything to make DRK "better".

My responses are to someone who made the claim that turtling matters, I never claimed it did. Regardless, as for ranged attacks in v4s, have you ever tried holy spirit spamming when being chased by a blackhole, not as easy as it sounds. In v2s the ranged times happen so infrequently that I would expect it barely shows up in the data. If the ranged attacks were such a factor I would expect paladin to be above warrior, also not even close. Again the only thing you are doing is poking holes in evidence by cherry picking single mechanics and flagging them as mattering, and not actually offering any evidence of your own.

[Reynhart]

Again the only thing you are doing is poking holes in evidence by chery picking single mechnics and flagging them as mattering, and not actually offering any evidence of your own.

First, I personally didn't claim anything proving DRK to be superior, I was asking an information...that can't be provided. Besides, since PLD (And WAR) lose more DPS than DRK by staying in tank stance (keep in mind losing more doesn't equal being lower), it's understandable that a fight with tank swaps would also benefit them by spreading mitigation needs and allowing more DPS stance uptime, even at low percentile.

[Eyvhokan]

Besides, since PLD (And WAR) lose more DPS than DRK by staying in tank stance

Is this really true?

DRK in grit loses blood weapon, which is quite high uptime (about 37% if used on cooldown), and contributes not only in skill speed, but adds MP and blood generation (basically 'adding' time to the Dark Arts 'berserk') as well, so losing this is quite a big double dip. Because this is on for such a large amount of time, I would consider losing this a pretty big loss.

[Chrono_Rising]

First, I personally didn't claim anything proving DRK to be superior, I was asking an information...that can't be provided.

Maybe you haven't directly said it yet but wait for it...

Besides, since PLD (And WAR) lose more DPS than DRK by staying in tank stance (keep in mind losing more doesn't equal being lower), it's understandable that a fight with tank swaps would also benefit them by spreading mitigation needs and allowing more DPS stance uptime, even at low percentile.

There it is. This is a claim not an established fact (even though it is said like one), and I figured it would be your claim from our earlier discussions in July. It is similar to the claim to which I originally responded in this thread.

Heres the thing, there is no evidence for this claim. Not from first hand testimonials, not in the volumes of savage stats collected on another site, and not the SSS dummies. There is evidence, though as you have pointed out it is not proof, that the opposite statement is correct. That Paladin and Warrior lose more going into tank stance is not supported by any observable metric, nor has anyone provided any evidence to the contrary. My point is that despite trying to poke holes in the evidence against dark knight, I still have evidence, though admittedly there are further questions surrounding it. The claim you have made has no support. Maybe your statement is correct, but I have as much evidence for this as I have evidence for a teapot in space orbiting the sun (Russel's Teapot if I'm specific).

More to the point, even if your claim were true, it does nothing except justify that dark knight would act in a "main tank" role for groups who do not tank swap and have a high uptime on tank stance. However, it still suffers from having no evidence, and for it to make sense as a point in this discussion it means that a significant amount of players at a lower percentile also have this awareness and actively use it to their advantage (there is no evidence of this either).

Without this point we have no reason to believe that Dark Knight is skewed in favor of MT at lower percentiles and with the number of paladins and warriors it is impossible that they are all OT all the time. It might skew the numbers slightly but remember we are playing in a time when for every 1 Dark Knight there are approximately 2 paladins and 1.5 warriors doing savage.

[SyzzleSpark]

snip

But in Defiance WAR's Fell Cleave turns into a 437.5 potency attack that heals them and cuts their incoming damage by 20% for 6 seconds, so obviously it has suffered the worst injustice here.

Poe's law, don't fail me now.

First, I personally didn't claim anything proving DRK to be superior, I was asking an information...that can't be provided. Besides, since PLD (And WAR) lose more DPS than DRK by staying in tank stance (keep in mind losing more doesn't equal being lower), it's understandable that a fight with tank swaps would also benefit them by spreading mitigation needs and allowing more DPS stance uptime, even at low percentile.

The primary point to make with regards to your posts is that they are muddying the discussion by diverting attention away from the matter at hand with ephemeral discrepancies in perceived performance based on varying uses of individual skills, or stance usage, across percentiles that statistically are inconsequential in the scope of job balance as a whole, and which can be measured regardless of statistical subsets with the data that we actually DO have.

You're basically red-herring-ing everyone away from the implications of data that actually exists to try and talk about the implications of data that doesn't exist or that measures variations that are a very small part of an already measurable whole (Plunge or Holy Spirit usage across percentiles, the number of full-time Grit DRKs vs. full-time Defiance/ShO tanks at one specific very low percentile), effectively distracting people from the fire burning down a house by calling attention to the flames from the neighbor's grill.

[Chrono_Rising]

But in Defiance WAR's Fell Cleave turns into a 437.5 potency attack that heals them and cuts their incoming damage by 20% for 6 seconds, so obviously it has suffered the worst injustice here.

Poe's law, don't fail me now.

Buff it to 600 dps in tank stance.

Poe's Law certified :^)

The primary point to make with regards to your posts is that they are muddying the discussion by diverting attention away from the matter at hand with ephemeral discrepancies in perceived performance based on varying uses of individual skills, or stance usage, across percentiles that statistically are inconsequential in the scope of job balance as a whole, and which can be measured regardless of statistical subsets with the data that we actually DO have.

You're basically red-herring-ing everyone away from the implications of data that actually exists to try and talk about the implications of data that doesn't exist or that measures variations that are a very small part of an already measurable whole (Plunge or Holy Spirit usage across percentiles, the number of full-time Grit DRKs vs. full-time Defiance/ShO tanks at one specific very low percentile), effectively distracting people from the fire burning down a house by calling attention to the flames from the neighbor's grill.

You took the words out of my mouth.

[shao32]

In large pulls sure, but single target this is nerf, we didn’t have limitless mp even with both running. This also does not explain why our GCD selfsustain must be grit locked.

you have to keep in mind in HW MP generation in grit was lower that out of grit for no reason, what this means? means grit gameplay was slowler compared to out of grit not only bcs blood weapon, but having less MP means less DA, depend of blood price MP return in single target was clunky and inefective, so was a buff on grit on that field.

if we compared gritless on HW and now on SB i will argue we have more MP now bcs yeah we loose bloodprice out of grit but in the other hand they remove darkside MP drain, and less be honest here, blood price never cover the mana drain of darkside, we generate more MP now that before so tecnically is not really a nerf either, if will be a nerf if darkside still consume MP.

they could do it better? probably, the MP manage is more balanced in both stances? absolutely yes.

and about souleater HP drain on grit well, thats another matter, we get in to the discusion about tank stances again, you complaing about grit having all those bonus but in reality most of this bonus are to make grit gameplay fun and playable, without the bonus grit would be the most clunky, boring and disgusting tank stance ever (it is thanks to the DPS meta but that x100) so there is no sense to nerf grit gameplay to the ground or buff gritless to make grit even more less desirable to use, the problem is not the selfsustain being locked on girt, is the dps penalty.