Core Issues With 4.x Dark Knight

[SyzzleSpark]

I see what you mean there. That's something I didn't consider.

In a 40s window, assuming an average of 6 Syphon Strikes (spit-balling here, accounting for stray Bloodspillers and such):

Grit: 2400*6+(~600BP)=15000
No-Grit: 1200*6+(~6300BW)=13500

However, if we consider that maybe out of Grit, BW enabled you to squeeze an extra Syphon into that window, it becomes closer, at 15000:14700.

So sure... that's actually relatively balanced I suppose. Although I never really considered BP/BW/Syphon respective of Grit/No-Grit to be a huge issue for the job, even back at the beginning of 4.x's launch when it was such a shock to the system that the returns had been so wildly re-adjusted, it didn't really bother me much compared to the litany of other issues I was noticing. Basically, I personally don't consider it a "core issue" as it were.

That being said, there are other aspects of resource management that I feel DEFINITELY need changing, and changes there will likely trickle down into a need for changes to BP/BW/Syphon, as I touched on earlier by describing the lack of a static variable in MP regeneration that is consistently static between stances, with high uptime, unaffected by other points of failure in the design. But I think we're splitting hairs here.

[saber_alter]

Wouldn't mind Dark mind giving the party a magical shield when dark arted. dark passenger and sole survivor being useful outside of their niches would be good too. having more than one combo, and a larger blackblood toolkit would be nice as well.

can my edgy greatsword class not be physically painful to do any sort of content with?

[Xenosan]

It's hard for me to imagine any raid mitigation added to DRK that isn't *free*. Yes, a cost-free ability... ..radical concept for Dark Knight.

But having DA as an requirement on DM or TBN for raid mitigation is even more needlessly 2-step than confession stacks / lilies; more stress and DPS tax on a resource already stretched thin.

Just make it free. If from Dark Mind, then from base DM gives 10% DR to all nearby members. + old reprisal or some similar damage down debuff on target. Prefer not to see MP shoulder another responsibility,

[SyzzleSpark]

Just make it free.

Something free for DRK? Hydaelyn forefend.

[WhyAmIHere]

Something free for DRK? Hydaelyn forefend.

Yeah, a demonstration to the front door and exit.

[Shurrikhan]

Core Issue 1: Lackluster Toolkit Cohesion

Relative to Heavensward DRK or even the current WAR, many parts of the DRK toolkit feel slightly disjointed; very few of the tools seem to have a fluid presence across its gameflow. While 3.x DRK suffered from what might be called anti-synergy (which could still be considered a worthy trade-off so long as the sum of power across the toolkit would otherwise be overpowered, which many have argued to be the case when simultaneously taking magic and physical damage), Dark Arts at least had a broad presence, such that mana spent for offense meant reduced mana spendable on defense; this concept now sees more branches in Quietus and Bloodspiller, but these options feel largely redundant compared to the Dark Dance synergy lost, causing Dark Mind (our only surviving defensive DA-spender unless you count Abyssal Drain) to feel more tacky and punishing than it feels a integration of some unique and pervasive DRK mechanic.

To put it another way, DRK feels like one of the classes that has the greatest potential for enjoyable depth, even if limited to relatively few keys, and yet very little of that potential has been tapped into.


Core Issue 2: Especially high dependence on double-weave.

Though less an issue than in 3.x due to Bloodspiller and Quietus remaining on the global cooldown, and Delirium best being used on the global after BW (unless you would lose an AA over the duration by delaying to the latter half of the oGCD gap), the way DA's control has been implemented leaves it a frequent cause of necessary double-weaving, and now that the rate of DA has increased (outside of BP usage) that part has only gotten worse. Moreover, the need to enhance skills means that one is often potentially forced to delay an oGCD (DP or DM, generally) by a half-gap, and the game's netcode combined with the loss of oGCD queues on any desync can put DRK in a bind second only to NIN when a DA-consuming oGCD is followed by a DA-consuming GCD, which now account for all but two weaponskills.


Core Issue 3: Miscellaneous Instances of Relative Undertuning or Reduced Functionality

TBN sees relatively rare use, and is far from free. Its breadth of usability also faces anti-synergy with defensive tools. To a degree, this seems like it could add some desireable complexity to the job, but in actuality, it makes TBN a relatively poor choice on which to spend mana in a few too many situations. I don't know if it needs to see an adjustment to functionality or simple retuning, but it feels faintly off right now.

Similarly, DM is painfully costly to make more evenly powerful relative to the closest analogs in WAR and PLD's toolkits (which are far from clear even then).

Shadow Wall, worse still, stands as simply an inferior version of Sentinel or Vengeance. If it's being paid for via DM, then I have to ask what's covering its cost in physical mitigation and why DM is as expensive as it is, and if not... why? Why does it have the worst each of refresh speed and mitigation percentile, relative to its WAR/PLD counterparts?

[SyzzleSpark]

Though less an issue than in 3.x due to Bloodspiller and Quietus remaining on the global cooldown, and Delirium best being used on the global after BW (unless you would lose an AA over the duration by delaying to the latter half of the oGCD gap), the way DA's control has been implemented leaves it a frequent cause of necessary double-weaving, and now that the rate of DA has increased (outside of BP usage) that part has only gotten worse. Moreover, the need to enhance skills means that one is often potentially forced to delay an oGCD (DP or DM, generally) by a half-gap, and the game's netcode combined with the loss of oGCD queues on any desync can put DRK in a bind second only to NIN when a DA-consuming oGCD is followed by a DA-consuming GCD, which now account for all but two weaponskills.

It breaks my heart, it really does. In HW double weaving was FUN. You felt fast and furious, hacking, slashing, spewing dark energy and kicking shit in the face. Those moments when all your oGCDs would come off recast at the same time and you could dump all of them like a ton of bricks. Brings a tear to me eye. Now its a bloody chore. Out with the pewpew and in with the QQ.

TBN sees relatively rare use, and is far from free. Its breadth of usability also faces anti-synergy with defensive tools. To a degree, this seems like it could add some desireable complexity to the job, but in actuality, it makes TBN a relatively poor choice on which to spend mana in a few too many situations. I don't know if it needs to see an adjustment to functionality or simple retuning, but it feels faintly off right now.

I personally am a huge advocate of indirectly adjusting TBN by reducing Blood Gauge costs. Bloodspiller/Quietus/Delirium are great and all, but none of them pack the punch to warrant a whopping 50% of any resource. Bloodspiller isn't like Fell Cleave, its not a massive gain over the nominal PPGCD, and there are no buff windows native to the job to fit it in, so there's really very little reason why it needs to cost 50 gauge. If it was less, TBN would feel better to use by proxy, I feel.

Shadow Wall, worse still, stands as simply an inferior version of Sentinel or Vengeance. If it's being paid for via DM, then I have to ask what's covering its cost in physical mitigation and why DM is as expensive as it is, and if not... why? Why does it have the worst each of refresh speed and mitigation percentile, relative to its WAR/PLD counterparts?

I can really only furiously nod my head in agreement. Who thought it was a good idea for DRK to have only 2, ...TWO... T-W-O.... native cooldowns, that will mitigate physical damage, the overall most common form of incoming damage in the game by a landslide? Whoever it was, they need a bloody vacation. The CR options DRK is literally required to bring to close this wound are an almost insultingly obvious band-aid.

[Shurrikhan]

It breaks my heart, it really does. In HW double weaving was FUN. You felt fast and furious, hacking, slashing, spewing dark energy and kicking shit in the face. Those moments when all your oGCDs would come off recast at the same time and you could dump all of them like a ton of bricks. Brings a tear to me eye. Now its a bloody chore. Out with the pewpew and in with the QQ.

This was one of the things that most surprised me going into 4.x. In 3.x, I had Low Blow proc after Low Blow proc to time in with usually on-cooldown Dark Passenger, meaning that I was double-weaving considerably more often (except during Grit Syphon + extended BP in mass AoE), and yet somehow it just felt a bit more satisfying, more... DRK, compared to what I'm hitting in 4.x. Maybe it was the "in your face" nature of Low Blow, or that our (imo) signature ability (DP) could still be used in single-target, idk, but it felt strangely divorced from what I was used to even when I'm forced into Grit and am getting massive returns from Delirium - Blood Price such that DA is filling up my oGCD almost as much with its DA spam. Our maybe it was just that I could more easily avoid spending my DA on a weaponskill, so I only really had to worry about DP coming off CD before my augmented skill to-be.

I've often considered how the DA might feel a little less clunky. For instance, if it was instead a trait that allowed any of the skills it would normally augment a secondary effect at mana-cost by making a temporary form of the skill or spell oGCD or of the ability available on cooldown, such that you could DA a Souleater to eat souls for a brief damage buff, DA after an AD for the self healing, DA after a DD/DM for spike enhanced usage of an already powerful ability, after a PS to activate, separately, that second shadow blast portion of the skill... That said, that would only fix the issue of feeling like your DA is being eaten up in unintended ways, much like NIN mudras during net desyncs, but that issue can be mostly passed over with practice alone. Double-weaving requires instead that simply DA, Plunge, and certain other oGCDs just have shorter animation locks.

I personally am a huge advocate of indirectly adjusting TBN by reducing Blood Gauge costs. Bloodspiller/Quietus/Delirium are great and all, but none of them pack the punch to warrant a whopping 50% of any resource. Bloodspiller isn't like Fell Cleave, its not a massive gain over the nominal PPGCD, and there are no buff windows native to the job to fit it in, so there's really very little reason why it needs to cost 50 gauge. If it was less, TBN would feel better to use by proxy, I feel.

I don't actually mind that one TBN = 1 Blood skill, or that we can only hold exactly two of any of our Blood skill. It's simple and clean while still giving (in the later case) definitive urgency to avoid overcapping in combination with TBN, and while that wouldn't normally mean much to me, I just don't see Bloodspiller's giving, say, 125% of a Blood skill instead (giving 50 while each costs 4) would make a significant difference. Heck, there's probably a way for TBN to feel perfectly fine and function viably even if it gave no Blood, or even came at the cost of Blood instead of mana (though I do actually like the exchange of resources to whatever degree can make Blood=Mana=HP, so that would sadden me). That much is all in the tuning.

That being said, I don't see why TBN's Blood gains needs to be all or nothing so long as its tuned to a point where its use, even if restoring the 50 Blood, is situational. At that point it might as well generate resource continuously as it's consumed, or at the end of duration based on the portion consumed (no loss of urgency or need for pre-spending).

I can really only furiously nod my head in agreement. Who thought it was a good idea for DRK to have only 2, ...TWO... T-W-O.... native cooldowns, that will mitigate physical damage, the overall most common form of incoming damage in the game by a landslide? Whoever it was, they need a bloody vacation. The CR options DRK is literally required to bring to close this wound are an almost insultingly obvious band-aid.

I think my main issue is less that we have fewer physical cooldowns as it is with having an anti-magic CD at all. No one else has that, so it can only serve to either niche us, balancing us around being overpowered in content with magic tankbusters or just viable in such content and/or leaving us underpowered elsewhere. Why provide a typal CD that no one else has, and with no counterbalance (such as DD, if on a shared recast time) at that?

[SyzzleSpark]

double weaving, tbn/blood, our crappy mitigation

On double weaving - I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that Low Blow and DP had extremely short animation locks, and Syphon didn't have a DA effect. On THAT note...

Now that I think about it... Syphon having a DA effect can be seen as the outlet of a long string of f***ing AWFUL decisions on SE's part. Let me lay that out for you:

->Delirium removed as a combo ender

-->nerfing BP/making BP Grit exclusive

--->BW and BP can no longer be combined

---->BW MP return increased to compensate (it is now 20% of a DA per proc. It used to be 13%.)

----->Darkside MP drain removed

------>BW buff with Darkside drain removal resulted in an apparently unforeseen surplus of MP.

------->DP nerfed out of ST rotations, removing yet another mana dump.

-------->Suddenly DRK is swimming in mana with not enough ways to dump it.

--------->TBN is implemented as a further dump

---------->TBN has to be given a resource conversion mechanic so as to avoid smearing our faces in the fact that we have to pay for mitigation in DPS.

----------->TBN has to be balanced such that it isn't spammed for DPS gains, making it a less frequent and consistent mana dump

------------>DRK still swimming in mana.

------------->Syphon Strike gets an utterly idiotic and needless DA effect.

When one looks at it like this, its hard to see how DRK's SB design passed QA. You can literally plot out a veritable topology of BAD decisions, which then continue to snowball into more ...BAD decision after BAD decision, each one having to band-aid over the ramifications of the one before it. Now, one could argue that I've re-ordered the chain of events here to prove a point, but any way you look at it, its hard to logically imagine a series of decisions that started with the choice to give Syphon a DA effect. That change screams "We had to do this to cover a bunch of other changes that are clearly mistakes but we're gonna roll with 'em anyway."

Phew. Excuse the tangent. Some very difficult-to-swallow food for thought, though.

On TBN, I agree that a Blood return proportionate to a percentage of the shield absorbed is a neat idea, but it seems like a more complicated solution, and one reason I'm in favor of reducing costs is to allow us an effectively larger pool of blood to stockpile, opening the door to triple or quad Bloodspillers, which would give us something vaguely resembling burst damage. You could offset this by also reducing returns (BW returns 2 blood per tick, BP 3, Souleater 5, etc.)

Not much I can add to the continued discussion of how poorly balanced our mitigation is. DD+Reprisal's removal from the job was a really stupid move, as was standardizing Mana-to-potency through all of these needlessly homogenous DA effects in such a way as to ensure spending a DA for defensive purposes is a horrible idea.

[Shurrikhan]

Now that I think about it... Syphon having a DA effect can be seen as the outlet of a long string of f***ing AWFUL decisions on SE's part. Let me lay that out for you:

All I really want is to feel the trade-offs more clearly, and to be able to make my decisions therefrom more fluidly. For instance, if DP were returned to 140 potency, even if remaining at DA cost, it would mean that it's still just as viable as the other choices (except C&S), unless you're in Grit and really need the added self-healing from a DA-SE.

I'd rather have a choice, with each viable global, to avoid spending DA on our weaponskill, but even without that, we don't have so many oGCDs now that it's particularly punishing. It doesn't feel good, but it doesn't feel outright bad either.

Ideally, I'd simply like to see Grit bridged towards non-Grit in some other way than by buffing Syphon Strike returns to a full DA's worth. I'd be happy with BW's returns being nerfed somewhat as well, so long as there's some other way to still reach about the same mana generation per minute.

I mean... if I were permitted to change DRK as much as I please, I'd rework it mostly from scratch to try to truly perfect its distinction, identity, and cohesion, but short of that, there doesn't seem to be all that much to do for how it plays at cap. How it plays during the course of leveling, however. Well, I'd certainly not want to go through 51-65 again...