4.11+ DRK Suggestions/Balance Changes from a "Hardcore" Player

[Shinkyo]

Why not leave BS cost as is but increase the potency of DA BS (like DA adds 160/180 pot instead of 140) this way it's a priority over the rest which I feel DRK could use because right now you just dump your DA on whatever.

a really cool buff would be for TBN to proc a free DA when the shield breaks.
at least, it's make a clear gain.

[hoax]

a really cool buff would be for TBN to proc a free DA when the shield breaks.
at least, it's make a clear gain.

That's the thing, in my opinion TBN doesn't need a change because TBN isn't the problem. I feel the current problem is the DA dumping.

Changing the DA pot for BS won't affect TBN in any way. It'll change the way you dump your DAs.

[Zeggy]

It's not an amazing idea, and I love dark mind how it is but... What about changing dark mind's dark arts effect to "Applies to all party members with x" ? Then it's not the same as paladins or warriors, since it's still only magic damage, but at least there's some ability to help your party.

[Shinkyo]

It's not an amazing idea, and I love dark mind how it is but... What about changing dark mind's dark arts effect to "Applies to all party members with x" ? Then it's not the same as paladins or warriors, since it's still only magic damage, but at least there's some ability to help your party.

If we go that route, might as well do a DA aoe version of TBN.
But the general complaint is that we don’t like having dps and mitigation tied to the same resource. We’ll always prioritize dps if possible.
Same reason why WAR don’t use IB anymore.

[Crater]

I think the reason why TBN needs to be paired is to ensure that you're still following a cooldown rotation. Otherwise, it just becomes an issue of hitting the correct MP threshold before the hit. Of course, that brings us into other issues with how the rest of our cooldowns are designed.

The thing is though that there's fairly little mileage to get out of a version of DRK that's just as concerned with having a strict cooldown rotation as the other tanks. If TBN is designed such that it's not sufficient for mitigation on tankbusters and needs to be paired with another cooldown, you might as well strip it out of the game and just buff the standard mitigation toolkit until it's as powerful as a Warrior's - at which point you have two classes trying to do the exact same thing in the exact same way, and one of them is always going to be in the doghouse (and historically speaking, if you're a tank and you're gambling on "Am I going to be better or worse than a Warrior at doing the things that Warriors do?" you're probably walking away disappointed).

I don't think there's a problem with a design where DRK's defensive identity becomes "You can mitigate anything you want, as long as you have the resources to do so", with little to no reliance on traditional cooldowns. But to get to that design, you have to improve their active mitigation to the point where it's sufficient to mitigate basically everything in the game (so long as you can stay on top of your resource management*).


*The issue that's paired with that is, of course, that the same resource is being used for defense and offense. But considering that DRK has two completely distinct resources, there's a pretty obvious solution to that problem staring us all in the face.

[Reynhart]

*The issue that's paired with that is, of course, that the same resource is being used for defense and offense. But considering that DRK has two completely distinct resources, there's a pretty obvious solution to that problem staring us all in the face.

MP gives Blood with TBN
Blood gives MP with Quietus

We could somehow generalize that to all MP and Blood expenses.

If we go that route, might as well do a DA aoe version of TBN.
But the general complaint is that we don’t like having dps and mitigation tied to the same resource. We’ll always prioritize dps if possible.

But if every shield on a party member gives back 50 Blood, it would be a very nice to refill you Blood Gauge completely after an AoE.

[Crater]

MP gives Blood with TBN
Blood gives MP with Quietus

We could somehow generalize that to all MP and Blood expenses.

You can exchange between the two, and in some instances use one to gain the other, but that's not really what I'm talking about.


MP is used to deal damage and to bolster your defenses.
Blood is used only to deal damage.

It would be much easier to fix Dark Knight as a class, both in terms of offensive and defensive capabilities, if one of these resources were used exclusively for offense, and one were used exclusively for defense.

[SyzzleSpark]

It would be much easier to fix Dark Knight as a class, both in terms of offensive and defensive capabilities, if one of these resources were used exclusively for offense, and one were used exclusively for defense.

*The issue that's paired with that is, of course, that the same resource is being used for defense and offense. But considering that DRK has two completely distinct resources, there's a pretty obvious solution to that problem staring us all in the face.

[Crater]

It's something that I've really come around on lately. Initially I kind of liked the interplay of the two resources, and I still feel like there are a few fun interactions there (for instance, DRK's dungeon playstyle of "MP for TBN (for mitigation) -> Creates Blood you can spend on Quietus (for some of the better tank AoE in the game) -> Restores MP for every target hit -> And now you have enough for several extra ADs (for sustained damage), a DAAD (for damage/healing), or sometimes even a DADP (for burst damage and just a hint of mitigation)" is really cool, and very involved compared to most other AoE rotations, including for actual DPS classes). And I still feel like it's possible to make a version of DRK where the interplay between those resources is actually meaningful, fun, and effective.

But in practice, right now they're both basically doing the same thing, they're barely even doing that same thing in different ways, and the constraints of each system (along with the clunky ways in which they are tied together) are really holding back a lot of design options that should be on the table to fix the class, but just aren't because if you play Six Degrees of Bloodspiller, sooner or later you run into a brick wall where you can't buff Power Slash because every time you do it the servers have to check every player's inventory and it would crash Primal.

[Reynhart]

It would be much easier to fix Dark Knight as a class, both in terms of offensive and defensive capabilities, if one of these resources were used exclusively for offense, and one were used exclusively for defense.

This could fix something from a balance standpoint, but would it be interesting gameplay wise ?
I think it would make Blood Gauge feel as bland as the Oath Gauge, since you have no real decision to make on how to spend it (or how you build it).