The mentality of a silent newbie healer/tank in trials/alliance raids...

[BigRed5392]

What's wrong to expect that they know what they should do? That's part of the self improvement everyone should strive for.
If they haven't backed themselves up with the knowledge and wisdom shared across various websites and social network posts, then I share no sympathy for these individuals.

not everyone owns a pc, or a smart phone. Some play just on ps4, and the net browser on the ps4 sucks. Not all websites load properly.

Not everyone learns from reading guides, watching videos.

@ thread

me and my g/f try to communicate, but some people are just jerks. I recall helping her with her pld relic. It was her first level 50 dungeon as a fresh level 50 pld, it was amdapor keep.
She greeted everyone and said it was her first time, she starts to pull, and the healer start complaining immediately ordering her to mass pull the dungeon. She tried to communicate, she was still learning, and not well geared.

Healer went so far as to tell her she should have been a stain on the bed sheets. This community can be pretty nasty with new tanks. I see it too often, and it can ruin the enjoyment.

And that's great! So long as you are doing it with other like-minded individuals. However, if you had the opportunity to educate yourself, and chose not to, and then inflicted yourself on seven other people who now have to carry you through the content, that's where it begins to become less admirable.

As I see it, going into a fight blind is forgivable if:
- The content is new. Like, less than a week old.
- The content is very forgiving, like a dungeon, or non-Ex Trial.
- All other participants are aware of your newness and agreed to indulge it before entering the instance.

Seriously, it's not that hard to put a group together that will be happy to run the content with you blind. Just dropping in on a party at random, though? If you're LUCKY, they will explain the contents to you, which will ruin your "learning the fight" just as much as if you'd researched the fight. If you're unlucky, the party will disband after a few wipes, and you've just wasted the time of seven other people just to indulge yourself. If your methods for finding enjoyment in this game rely on sacrificing the enjoyment of others, then they are bad methods.

you can only speak for yourself not 7 other people. You like the first guy i quoted need to understand not everyone has access to a pc or smartphone.

People may only just afford the game on ps4 which may have been gifted to them, as well as the game, and earn money doing chores to pay for the sub. People of all walks of life play mmo.

The same can be said for yourself, you can find 7 like minded people to play how you like. TBH new players should get some leeway on df content, as they may not have began networking and meeting like minded players. While long time vets have had more then enough time to do so, and have more meabs to do so.

People like you and the first guy i quoted, really bring out the worst in the community. Arbitrary expectation, that you guys never mention. You don't hear people talk in NN about "oh you have to research fights before hand" to expect to is unrealistic.

Also the fact not everyone learns the same, some learn by research, some learn by doing. People make mistakes, even vets. Claiming people ruin the fun of 7 others is unrealistic, as you don't know the 7 others mindset. Only yours.

[MoroMurasaki]

things about people not owning smartphones/computers

You have a PS4 and internet, download youtube. It's free, takes up virtually no space and has a guide for every group fight in the game.


I'm not defending the idea that everyone must watch a guide, I'm content to wipe a few times for the sake of someone's blind run, but that does not mean everyone must feel this way. If someone doesn't want to run with a player who refuses knowledge that is 100% available to them then that is their perogative. Don't make an excuse up to try to defend the idea that any player in this game doesn't gave access to a guide.

Yes and no. I wrote a FFXIV blog on elistist/scrub, and that mentality can be toxic from either perspective. I agree that I haven't seen people kicked left and right for being new or making a few mistakes. I also agree that I've seen some really nice and helpful people. But I've also come across a fair share of really rude people, moreso in mid to late 2017 than early 2016. I was actually very impressed when I first got here how pleasant DF was as a new player.

It also matters how well you do your job and what the expectations of other players are. Many want to go as fast as possible to get their roulette done because they are bored and just want the reward. Others see it as a matter of pride or ego. Whatever. Mostly though it seems to be one person in a group that gripes if that comes up. A lot of the pressure likely comes from inside the new or returning or nervous player, from fear of failure, fear of rejection, or fear of letting people down. If you put a few really rude/mean players per week (or sometimes in a day!) on top of that DF will take on an ominous feel. It may also depend on continent and data center in some cases in terms of how people behave or react.

I'm with you for the vast majority here. I think calling someone a scrub is just as offensive as calling them an elitist. What I don't agree with is that we have an elitism problem in FFXIV.

I think the baseline for when someone should be patient and understanding of another player is simply that they are visibly trying and open to cretique and advice.

I have been leveling SAM now that all my healers are 70 and I have encountered several struggling healers along the way including an AST who didn't use cards. I've given advice to all of them that I thought I could help. Most were receptive and open to trying at the very least, many have mentioned never hearing anything about the things I'd told them before we spoke.

If we had an elitism problem in this game do you think an AST in 50+ content could get away with not using cards and never speak to anyone about it? He had healed up to the Vault.

We have 'elitist' players, yes, but they are such a minority they aren't worth the time it took you to write your blog. If people (not saying you) go around calling everyone who expects a healer to apply dots or a SAM to use AoE elitists then when those people actually encounter elitism and want to bring attention to it no one will listen.

I guess this turned into "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" and I didn't mean for it to but I think the lesson applies here. Elitists are bad, almost everyone agrees with that, but not every person who offers advice or gets a bit snarky deserves that brand.

Edit: I did find your blog post very well written and I think you're quite thoughtful, I hope you don't take offence to this, I simply don't agree

[Joven]

Back when I first started I would always say that I was new. Usually someone would give a short explination of what to expect and we were off. Now, after coming back from a year and a half hiatus, whenever I say I'm new it's met with silence and a speed run, so I don't say anything any more. The burden shouldn't lie completely on new players to make the effort when there is a notification stating that new players are present.

[Vahlnir]

The burden shouldn't lie completely on new players to make the effort when there is a notification stating that new players are present.

While I agree with you on this part in particular, it mostly depends on the content. People also make alts, so how does one really know if they're actually new or not unless they say so? But anyway, if it's a dungeon then no, people generally won't bother to give a summary...unless there's a wipe. Normal/HM primal? Probably not there either, unless there's a wipe. Or people will explain on the fly when they see errors being made (I do this myself). In raids like Deltascape normal, people will only really cover what has the potential of wiping the group...or they call it out on the fly. Ex primals are a bit different, mostly because you're usually expected to do a little research before hand. After that the group sorta has to piece things together, and communication is a must. What it mostly boils down to is that I'd say 80% of the mechanics in this game just require people to pay attention and act, so there isn't a whole lot to say unless you're in higher end duties. I can't speak for Savage or Ultimate since I haven't touched anything Savage-wise from HW on so no, I have no idea what it's like on either accounts. Rabanastre though is basically what I said, though we've been given a few things we haven't seen before...but it mostly comes down to common sense and situational awareness.

[MaloraYuki]

Most people kkep quiet because they are afraid of getting KICKED OUT over being new.
And true honesty? their fear is not unjustified.

I can’t say you are wrong I’ve had people try to instant kick people for just having a sprout in lvling dungeons. I have also seen people say things about sprouts should just be kicked because they don’t know what they are doing. I will always reject a dumb kick like that or defend the sprouts. It’s stupid that people do stuff like this at all. Now people may say the problem isn’t that common and it’s not but one bad experience like that and people start hiding.

[MaloraYuki]

It's weird how people used to explain fights but now nobody ever does.

I don’t explain fights unless people ask, only because people have yelled at me for doing it because they wanted to run blind and how I ruined the content for them. But especially if there is 2 new players one wanting a blind one and one wanting directions how do you go about that? The run is going to be ruined for one or the other.

[tinythinker]

What I don't agree with is that we have an elitism problem in FFXIV.

I never said there was one?

[LineageRazor]

People like you and the first guy i quoted, really bring out the worst in the community. Arbitrary expectation, that you guys never mention. You don't hear people talk in NN about "oh you have to research fights before hand" to expect to is unrealistic.

You ignored a key sentence in what I wrote:

if you had the opportunity to educate yourself, and chose not to, and then inflicted yourself on seven other people who now have to carry you through the content, that's where it begins to become less admirable.

If you have no ability to view videos, then obviously you don't have the opportunity to educate yourself. If you don't know about this expectation, then you're not making a choice to remain uneducated. In either case, it's forgivable to go in blind. Individuals who KNOW that being educated is expected, have the ability to do so, and then choose not to - that's when things start to get iffy.

For the record, by the way, while I consider this conduct to be rude, I neither comment on nor punish individuals for neglecting this basic bit of etiquette. A Mentor is there to help, and help I shall, even if the individual in question SHOULD have done their part to help themselves. I do feel badly for the other newbies in the instance, however, who did do the prep work and now have to spend the better part of an hour bringing the others up to speed, and perhaps running out the timer without a win.

As for not knowing what others in the party are thinking, that goes both ways. The new player does not know that the other people in the party would be upset if they knew the new player was going in blind. However, it doesn't take a giant leap of intuition to guess that if there's a way to complete the content quicker and more easily, folks are going to be in favor of it. Speed and efficiency are very nearly all anyone ever talks about in the game. "How can I level more quickly?" "What stats will kill the monster the fastest?" "Can I fit another attack in before moving out of the aoe?" And so on and so forth. If you're going to guess at the mindset of the other players in the party, it's a pretty safe bet to assume that they'd be happier if the new player did the prep work.

This is why I advocate finding like-minded individuals. I have several friends I call upon to tackle content blind. If I can't gather enough friends to do so, I advertise in party finder, making it clear that we're going in blind. I don't make a habit of dropping in on random parties when I want to experience content raw (unless, again, the content is very new), and advocate that others do the same. Learning the fights yourself can be a lot of fun - and there are lots of others who feel the same way. FIND those others, and do the content with them. Don't take the lazy way out.

[jackass1203]

And that's great! So long as you are doing it with other like-minded individuals...

I'd also like to add that to me at least I find it acceptable if it's in a DF pug or in a PF that accepts first timers. Other than that I'd probably have an issue with (especially if you join in a progression run that's trying to push a certain part and you have no idea what's going on). If there's a tank though that's going in as a first timer I think that's a different issue and they should have at least watched a video to learn the mechanics.

Whenever I do a pug and I see a first timer with no one saying anything I pull either way and if we wipe then I'll ask who's new and ask what they don't understand to fill them in.

not everyone owns a pc, or a smart phone...

Smartphones can be extremely cheap now if you can't afford a $200 smartphone but a $400 console then there's a problem there. Also, PS4's have the YouTube app which there are a lot of guides for fights there.

[frostmagemari]

Smartphones can be extremely cheap now if you can't afford a $200 smartphone but a $400 console then there's a problem there. Also, PS4's have the YouTube app which there are a lot of guides for fights there.

So does that mean we should expect everyone to have a PC then? For under a $1000 you can buy a PC that's powerful enough to run FFXIV on low/med settings.
As to the expectation that one should have a smartphone though.. it's a $200 smartphone plus easily a $60 monthly fee for anything worthwhile (and even then, not all providers offer much data) and some can't afford the smartphone plans regularly or don't find a need to have a smart phone (or it's plan) when a simple voice+text plan will do what they need to do in life.