Isn't it about time for WHM to get an AOE mitigation tool?

**Sebazy** · 10-24-2017 04:43 AM

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Just want to stop this type of talk now, so I updated my profile to show my main character.

Genuinely appreciated, nothing to be ashamed of with your logs at all. You do better DPS than I do pls =P

I'm surprised you feel the way you do, from my quick scan over, it looks like you run with a fairly regular team but seemed to get a new co healer every week? You seemed to handily out pace pretty much every healer you ended up alongside from what I can see. Did you get far into NeoExdeath? Your low Cure III rate has me wondering how disciplined your group was in terms of positioning. As much as I bemoan my group's erraticness, I do have to appreciate that they do at least stack properly when I ask them to

The shake it off thing was weird and I agree, I'm not entirely sure why SE made that call. Some utility definitely wouldn't hurt for WHM, it'd be nice to not feel a little bit of guilt that I'm not on AST this tier, I just don't think another galvanise effect is the correct answer though. It'd mostly be an advantage for progression time, an area where WHM is already a powerhouse. Don't you think we would be better off with something to help our raid synergy for when things are going smoothly?

**Miste** · 10-24-2017 05:46 AM

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Would some form of utility, however small, really be such a bad thing, despite them NEEDING it or not?

Alright so we stand corrected about your raiding experience, but the reason it happened is because of the silly comparisons and odd opinions you have about the other healers and your lack of understanding of how AoE healing is needed for all healers and not just WHM. SCH and AST need decent AoE, they don't need as strong as WHM and they don't have as strong as WHM, but they do need what they currently have.

So I am guessing you are limited to only playing WHM in raids and haven't tried the other two right? So you don't know what their weaknesses are so you keep thinking "the grass is greener on the other side" because you've never experienced playing them in the difficult content like O3S/O4S.

I mean it is easy to not understand your point of view when you make statements like "I don't get why WHM needs to be held back by all these limitations when the other healers can have whatever they want to fill in their weak points." when no one even said that the other healers can just have whatever they want. I mean you make it seem like AST and SCH have no weak points but again they do.

I mean recently your posts have been arguing about SCH and AST having AoE healing when they actually need it to be viable so it is seriously confusing on where you are coming from here.

A powerful AoE shield isn't needed for WHM because if they are paired with a Nocturnal AST or SCH like they are supposed to be then you have access to shields.

Like I said before a weak shield with a decently long cooldown would be fine for just those DF situations where you end up double WHM and a hit is going to hurt like after adds in Rabanastre Roflcale, but asking for a powerful one with no drawbacks just isn't necessary for WHM.

As for some other utility (if we can think of something) that is unique to WHM no one ever said no to that, just no one has offered any unique ideas either.

PS. you should always post on your lalafell...she is really cute D:

**Fernosaur** · 10-24-2017 05:48 AM

Now that the Shake it Off change came up, I have to say that I personally think it was a mistake. Shake it Off makes WAR more progression-friendly, but it definitely pushes DRK into a state of complete disadvantage in pretty much every respect except AoE and dungeons. Now DRK doesn't really bring anything other than "it's easier to DPS when going in blind than with WAR." And that's not really saying much, since WAR now has a tool that can save an entire run, much like PLD does.

Disregarding that, more than a Galvanize effect, I could see WHM getting something similar to Fey Covenant. A raidwide MDEF increase, or a Magic vuln reduction for the party, in the form of Shell or Reflect. That would be way less polarizing, give WHM something to adress this "issue," and wouldn't really clash that much with the rest of the game's toolkits in negating AoE damage since % mitigation loses value the more similar effects you stack.

I feel the last point is the most important, since flat out damage mitigation from shields can become really, really stupid. I've been deploying crit Adloquiums worth 50k eHP, and while I know the debate over Adlo's critical effect is iffy because of the "low" chance (I get a prepull crit 80% of the time in v4s), stacking more and more shields isn't really the way to go if you want WHM to have mitigation. There's already three different sources of AoE shields in this game, I don't think we really need more.

**Exiled_Tonberry** · 10-24-2017 05:51 AM

Originally Posted by Sebazy

I'm surprised you feel the way you do, from my quick scan over, it looks like you run with a fairly regular team but seemed to get a new co healer every week?

After Alexander, I felt like the static life wasn't for me. So I just run weekly with a couple friends and pug the remaining members.

Did you get far into NeoExdeath? Your low Cure III rate has me wondering how disciplined your group was in terms of positioning.

I make use of Cure III, but very rarely. Usually an Indom and medica/II from myself covers everything just fine. This is true for everything but Neo Exdeath, which I do regularly Cure III for every Almagest. Perhaps me not having a static group is effecting my opinion on Cure III? I just feel that it's so situational that it's not worth using and possibly missing multiple members of your party half the time.

This is why I feel like Indom and Earthly Star is stronger. Not because it actually heals for more, but because it's far easier to use and get the power of a Cure III without the need of trusting your entire team to be around you as you cast it.
You can't spam it, but even with O4S' Almagest I have never needed to SPAM Cure III. Heck, if I did I'd probably be dead the next second because of aggro reset.

Not denying it has it's uses though. When a mechanic forces you to stack, it's my go to heal.

It'd mostly be an advantage for progression time, an area where WHM is already a powerhouse. Don't you think we would be better off with something to help our raid synergy for when things are going smoothly?

Someone brought up a point that WHM excels in progression content, but falls behind a bit in farm/speedkills, and that if it did well in speedkill and farming content as well it would be unbalanced.

I'm of the opinion that it's not healthy for a job to only shine in content that'll only be called true progression for about 2 months at most, but I also agree that WHM shouldn't be good at EVERYTHING, and giving them utility would do just that.
So honestly...I don't know what I want for WHM lol.
On paper, they're completely fine. It's just me personally that feels like they're missing something.

I guess everything I've said till now has been pretty baseless when I consider that I myself don't know what I want :P
WHM could have nothing done to them from now till 5.0, and I'm sure it would be fine, but I'll also feel like theres a little annoying hole in their kit all the while...

**Sebazy** · 10-24-2017 07:09 AM

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Perhaps me not having a static group is effecting my opinion on Cure III? I just feel that it's so situational that it's not worth using and possibly missing multiple members of your party half the time.

Quite likely yeah, O4S is pretty good for forcing people to position tightly, but even still, you're more likely to get that greedy BLM or such that doesn't want to play ball in a pug situation.

You're definitely right about Indom and Earthly star feeling easier to handle though. Ease of use is arguably Indom's strongest point, the CD is relatively short, the range is good and it's an oGCD ofc. Earthly Star slots in somewhere in the middle of course.

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Someone brought up a point that WHM excels in progression content, but falls behind a bit in farm/speedkills

Yeah, the thing to keep in mind here is that for 3.4, WHM didn't even particularly shine in progression either. Range was never a problem in the same way it was for Midas limiting Medica II's appeal, and of course AST was leagues ahead in the MP economy game.

What we have now isn't perfect, but in all honesty I think it's as close as we are going to get with the mistake that is AST in the mix.

**DotsNnots** · 10-24-2017 07:32 AM

So let me clarify from the 16 pages I just read through…

The opinion of speed runner/end game meta folks doesn’t count because they’re a minority, but then when you feel like someone doesn’t have enough of this similar end game experience you invalidate their opinion as well until they provide proof?

Well apparently my opinion as someone who likes to speed kill/optimize (more on that later) doesn’t matter, but have it anyways. Let’s debunk a few themes from this thread:
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“White mage isn’t supposed to have mitigation.” Uh, what, why? Because you’ve dreamed up some identity definitions for the classes on your own, and won’t allow anything other than this ideal to fit? There’s nothing that says WHM can’t have mitigation. They used to have mitigation with stoneskin I and II. The still have single target mitigation with the knock-off-you’re-not-fooling-anyone-with-the-renamed-stoneskin divine benison. There’s no “SCH only shields | WHM only raw heals” definitions built anywhere into the game, and only in passing, in not remotely elaborated upon comments from figure heads like Yoshi P, has it been mentioned. Which, I might add, was royally trashed because the “pure healer” idea frankly doesn’t work.
SCH doesn’t just shield. They have a ton of huge burst AOE healing and mitigation tools. You might not see the potency numbers fly on your screen, because you don’t see the 10% that sacred soil just ate, or the extra healing the co-healer was able to do with fey cov up that’s technically from the SCH because of the buff, but it’s there and I could go on.

I’m also fairly certain OP isn’t requesting a GCD shield like succor or noct aspected helios, so I’m not sure why we’re comparing those. Some long CD oGCD shield that functions similarly to soil or collective unconsciousness I think is what they’re after.

Also, to all the “don’t run double WHM’ comments, have you ever had a dead co-healer (or one just raised with no mana) and desperately needed mitigation to save the prog, but could do nothing? It happens quite often. Think of meteors in ExDad, or pyretic in 11s. Not only is it a bit silly that the healer supposedly “slotted” for prog (which isn’t the case, by the way) doesn’t have a tool to deal with this scenario, but flip it around and if the WHM was dead, both AST and SCH have some big bursty heals or CDs to deal with what a WHM would’ve normally handled (insert ET succor (which is only a 20s CD btw, can we stop throwing it around that it’s so “locked” how often do you need to spam multiple AOE heals in under 20s?? Damage in this game comes in bursts and waves, and is rarely constant) or largesse’d or lightspeed helios spam).

And yes, either an Astro OR a SCH can solo heal through almagest, it’s just not quite as brainless.

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Now let’s talk about WHM’s “place” in the raid scene, since that’s the nitty gritty of what we’re getting into here (vs. something like dungeons).

Would you like proof of WHM being excluded from groups? Head to the reddit recruitment sub, find the total number of posts looking for a healer in the past, I dunno, 30 days and then from those posts count the numbers specifically looking for only AST or SCH vs. including WHM. There’s your numbers, go find them. Feel free to add recruitment posts from discord servers. Oh and don’t forget to check their fflogs and see that they’re often either looking for a SCH because they have an AST, or vice versa, or if they’re willing to take SCH or AST, it’s not usually because they already have a WHM, just that their current healer is willing to flex. Speed running metas are pervasive even within groups who have no business trying to force them. Groups in PFs DO actively exclude WHM (among other classes). Even WhyMaige made a comic about it, obviously I’m not the only one encountering this. No I don’t bother to screenshot PF just to service forum justice for situations I haven’t even imagined happening yet. That’s a ridiculous request.

I had been looking for a group for the past several weeks, as a WHM who also likes to optimize and speedkill, but willing to go with a fun average group too, I’m not picky. The first week I posted as a WHM LFG - 0 hits. The next time where I posted I’d be willing to switch to SCH or AST? 5 responses. I even had groups who were interested in me say they’d be willing to let me stay WHM for a bit, and then the next day fervently push for me to switch and insisted I go spend money on a crafted weapon because I only had a decent weapon on WHM at the time.

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Now as to their “prog spot” let’s talk on 2 points:

1. By no means are they the slotted “prog” healer. Especially with the succor buff (which honestly was probably a result of the impending Ultimate raid), AST/SCH is just as likely as a comp. Actually I’d argue it’s moreso. Why? Because in terms of prog all three healers are relatively well balanced, which means the class that the individual person performs on the best is the one that will have the best performance in prog. And what do people have more practice on because of the “meta” comp? SCH/AST (see next point for “practice” time duration).

2. The “prog” phase doesn’t actually last that long. By saying, “oh WHM is for prog, SCH/AST is for farming/optimizing” you’re basically saying that “oh who has a spot for 2-3weeks? The other [what like five months before 4.2?] goes to the other healers. Especially for 1-3s which most groups have cleared by now. So yay, I’m relevant for a couple of weeks and then get forced into a different role or out of a group (yes it happens).

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Now lets talk about skills:

I’m not going to apples to apples compare skills like the rest of you folks. (Although frankly I get annoyed that you’re even mentioning WD’s potency without automatically adding in rouse’s effect as well, who the heck uses WD without rouse?). The reality is, you can’t apples to apples compare. SCH is built around pre-planning and placing their tools ahead of time for maximum efficiency. So you can’t compare cure3 spam to ET succor + indom etc because functionally you won’t use those skills at the same place or time. Same thing with trying to compare largesse’d cure3 to insert whatever skill it was being compared to — largesse’s use has to be planned just like SCH skills do, so don’t be silly.

But the reality is, WHM has far fewer functional skills **THAN EVERY CLASS IN THE GAME.** Here’s a handy dandy spreadsheet I made awhile back to compare The skills in the same row aren’t meant to say A = B, just trying to align them by what’s similar. And I didn’t count astro cards individually (also didn’t count the two new ones), but I did count card skills (like redraw), as I felt like this balanced out how to count the useful things, the cards. Even adding in literally meme skills (fluid aura and repose) they still come out the lowest. Also the color coding is just so you can see what is/isn’t a GCD or how long the CD is (was really just me playing around with it at the time).

What does this mean? That WHM literally can’t do as much and doesn’t have nearly as much variation or ability as their co-healers. I’m not saying give them 5 new skills to balance it out - that wouldn’t be balanced of course, but they are missing something. My personal vote is still for raid damage utility over mitigation, but I digress.

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Now let’s get back to the point of the thread and talk about the purpose of mitigation:

The very nature of mitigation requires planning. It needs to be up before a mechanic happens.

So right now, throw out EVERY. SINGLE. COMMENT. mentioning Plenary Indulgence. You can’t use PI unless you proc it, and you can’t proc PI until after damage has happened, which is completely contrary to the whole point of the thread. Having a little extra heal (and please, it’s tiny, no decent WHM builds up 3 stacks in anything, pretty much ever. Especially not during almagest because you’d rip ago) doesn’t stop you from dying at i320 with no vit melds to meteors on ExDad. And there’s no way to build stacks effectively before meteors, because they’d fall off. Or -insert other raid mechanic where you still won’t use it-. I think the only time I SOMETIMES get 3 stacks is d-wave spam in 3s.

Also not one person has said why giving WHM a small long oGCD mitigation skill is a bad thing. I’ve heard “no because they’re not supposed to shield” and “no because I don’t want them to be more OP than my class” but no comments like: “Well it’ll functionally help them in special instances of prog and that’s bad, somehow…” or “I’m a SCH so I can put out a beefy AOE regen, single target regen, big AOE or single target shields, buff the healing potency of the whole group, increase crit on the boss, increase the attack speed of the whole party, put out a pretty bursty raw aoe heal every 30s. But WHM should only be able to 2 of the things I can, raw heals and regens.” or “I’m an dir AST who’s entire skill kit was literally ripped from WHM plus my MAIN GCD heals are more potent than WHM, plus I have the highest potency heal in the game, plus I give everyone various buffs, plus even as dir I can mitigate … but WHM should only raw heal or regen.” lolwut.

**Ghishlain** · 10-24-2017 07:32 AM

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

WHM could have nothing done to them from now till 5.0, and I'm sure it would be fine, but I'll also feel like theres a little annoying hole in their kit all the while...

I feel the one thing you should consider is content in other context and it might help alleviate some of your concerns.

For example, even though a large bulk of capable raiders have completed Omega (Savage) and have it farm, there will also be a smaller group of capable raiders just starting to progress through Omega (Savage) for the first time. Even though gear acquisition is easier now that 4.1 is released, there are still quite a few safety nets that WHM can employ to help recover and these progression raiders may choose to go that route despite meta saying other wise.

Another example would be a static who has cleared content but are choosing to remain within their comfort zone to make subsequent farms as seamless as possible. There's a comfort level there with the current healer pair that would be shifted pretty dramatically if one of them decided to change.

And also there will also be raiders who don't really have the time for a static will choose to PuG for their weekly clears. These types of parties may choose to employ WHM as a safety net for any mishaps due to raiders playing together for the first time.

In the end, I feel it's important to appreciate that there will always be a niche for WHM due to the design of their kit. It's not the speedkill meta, but not everyone will be playing with that mindset either and that's why I don't feel we'll see WHM be pushed out of content in the current iteration unless AST or SCH gain some powerful buffs in the coming patches.

**Exiled_Tonberry** · 10-24-2017 08:34 AM