Ifirit, how it could have been done better.

[Murugan]

You mistake condescending for sarcasm.

You mistake your idea of sarcastic wit (singular), for free reign to condescendingly jeer at others in the endgame community who are making valid points about the shortcomings of the current loot system and its harmful effects on the community's ability to reasonably distribute rewards from content.

This current system harms endgame communities, and helps only those who equate luck and farming with elitism. Now I have played MMO endgames for years and I can handle the work, and I would gladly gear a hundred of my members before getting the item I want if it meant I could improve my linkshell. I don't care about the work, I don't care about rarity.

I care about Square Enix telling us "you can't have an endgame linkshell currently, we are taking that out of your hands. You are there to facilitate the formation of groups, and ultimately we are restricting you on this content so that you are no different from any chat channel including Ul'dah's /shout channel."

What of the people who have been in my LS for a solid year doing whatever qualified as endgame as a team? Showing up when we need them? There are many in my LS who are just that, and they despite their efforts have no luck at Ifrit. I can do nothing to help them get the rewards they want while I get those rewards for the 5th or 6th time and they drop into oblivion as I got them already in the first week.

[Dakin]

This current system harms endgame communities, and helps only those who equate luck and farming with elitism. Now I have played MMO endgames for years and I can handle the work, and I would gladly gear a hundred of my members before getting the item I want if it meant I could improve my linkshell. I don't care about the work, I don't care about rarity.

Lets get back to the topic on hand. You run Ifrit with your super duper endgame LS, how does a craftable horn drop differ from a Need/Greed system in your situation? Both eliminate the second layer of RNG we currently have, but Need/Greed doesn't allow people to obtain the best gear in the game by purchasing it outright.

[Murugan]

You mistake your idea of sarcastic wit (singular), for free reign to condescendingly jeer at others in the endgame community who are making valid points about the shortcomings of the current loot system and its harmful effects on the community's ability to reasonably distribute rewards from content.

This current system harms endgame communities, and helps only those who equate luck and farming with elitism. Now I have played MMO endgames for years and I can handle the work, and I would gladly gear a hundred of my members before getting the item I want if it meant I could improve my linkshell. I don't care about the work, I don't care about rarity.

I care about Square Enix telling us "you can't have an endgame linkshell currently, we are taking that out of your hands. You are there to facilitate the formation of groups, and ultimately we are restricting you on this content so that you are no different from any chat channel including Ul'dah's /shout channel."

What of the people who have been in my LS for a solid year doing whatever qualified as endgame as a team? Showing up when we need them? There are many in my LS who are just that, and they despite their efforts have no luck at Ifrit. I can do nothing to help them get the rewards they want while I get those rewards for the 5th or 6th time and they drop into oblivion as I got them already in the first week.

Lets get back to the topic on hand. You run Ifrit with your super duper endgame LS, how does a craftable horn drop differ from a Need/Greed system in your situation? Both eliminate the second layer of RNG we currently have, but Need/Greed doesn't allow people to obtain the best gear in the game by purchasing it outright.

Why do you have to keep calling it Need for Greed? You realize we had a loot system that allowed people to pass items since launch right? Need for Greed is a specific type of loot system which I already explained, and explained why it is not a solution to fix all loot issues in this game (and could horribly screw things up if implemented like it is in many MMO's).

But anyways, you are right simply having a loot system and not a copy of the faction NM chest system (which made sense for that since people spent faction, and doesn't make sense for Ifrit since the entire group puts in equal effort/resources) would solve my main complaint that endgame loot distribution has been taken out of the hands of groups/linkshells.

But I'd still like to have at least some craftable NM drops because I feel it adds a layer to endgame by including crafters/HQ and extends the life of such content, by yes allowing the endgame community to profit. I feel that people in endgame, just like people who craft or gather should be allowed to profit off of their chosen playstyle. People desire endgame drops, and in XI our linkshell was made filthy rich off of this desire. That gil came from our hard work as a linkshell.

However, that completely ignores the fact that rather than making your objections to Akuun's suggestion you also had to wrongfully paint him as some "buy to win" casual "instant gratify-er", while defending the current inexcusable system we have now which has a myriad of issues harmful to the community.

[DoctorMog]

You mistake your idea of sarcastic wit (singular), for free reign to condescendingly jeer at others in the endgame community who are making valid points about the shortcomings of the current loot system and its harmful effects on the community's ability to reasonably distribute rewards from content.

No, I was actually only pointing out how bad of an idea making Ifrit drop horns that could be crafted into Ifrits weapons was.

This current system harms endgame communities, and helps only those who equate luck and farming with elitism. Now I have played MMO endgames for years and I can handle the work, and I would gladly gear a hundred of my members before getting the item I want if it meant I could improve my linkshell. I don't care about the work, I don't care about rarity.

Seems my linkshell and our "endgame community" is doing just fine.

I care about Square Enix telling us "you can't have an endgame linkshell currently, we are taking that out of your hands. You are there to facilitate the formation of groups, and ultimately we are restricting you on this content so that you are no different from any chat channel including Ul'dah's /shout channel."

I dont recall where SE said that, please provide a link and quote.
If by that quote you mean its implied, I would disagree on grounds that I have created my linkshell to be exclusive to all other "endgame" linkshells, thus creating exactly what you said is not possible.

What of the people who have been in my LS for a solid year doing whatever qualified as endgame as a team? Showing up when we need them? There are many in my LS who are just that, and they despite their efforts have no luck at Ifrit. I can do nothing to help them get the rewards they want while I get those rewards for the 5th or 6th time and they drop into oblivion as I got them already in the first week.

And its just that:

Luck.


Any system they come up with will be just a matter of % chance. Yes in your example you can "hand" someone something, but:

Currently the droprate on Ifrit weapons is about 5%.

They could implement the system the EXACT way you describe and you could still get nothing for "all those people in your endgame shell" for 100+ runs.

And you would be here complaining even THAT system was unfair.

There is no pleasing some people.

Yes it needs improvements,
NO allowing horns to be crafted into Ifrit weapons is not a good solution.

Need/Greed with master loot is the best choice imo.
That way you have to "do" the content, but nothing is "dropped into oblivion"

[Murugan]

Seems my linkshell and our "endgame community" is doing just fine.

I guess you don't care then how your people get drops. Are you sure you are an "endgame community"? Typically equitable and organized loot distribution is a large reason that people join endgame shells over say casual shells which spam content 24/7 and claim "endgame".

I mean I can sit in ul'dah with /shout and do the same thing, anyone can do this content, you might be the only one still bragging about livestreaming it but you aren't the only one killing him every day but I'd still rather be in an LS with others who I rely on and see as a team working towards shared goals and accomplishments.

Being able to help our members get the items they need most is a huge boon to this. Something they took away with the Ifrit fight. Now we break up into parties of 8 to spam this content, while repeatedly having to toss items we know each other could use and wish we could give to them.

I dont recall where SE said that, please provide a link and quote.
If by that quote you mean its implied, I would disagree on grounds that I have created my linkshell to be exclusive to all other "endgame" linkshells, thus creating exactly what you said is not possible.

So? We did the same thing in beta, it doesn't matter if all we can do is form groups then we may as well just be statics within a casual LS (I mean no offense if you run your LS as a "elite static group" based charity), or even not as part of an LS just pick ups.

Endgame LS have continuity, at least ours did until Ifrit. In darkhold or the world NM's we geared all our members with the drops they needed, and we prioritized those drops so that people got what they needed first and their participation was rewarded equitably.

This is how endgame has always worked in MMO's. Square Enix took that away from with us the way Ifrit's loot works. Personal loot lists? It is a slap in the face of anyone who has a real endgame community.

Any system they come up with will be just a matter of % chance. Yes in your example you can "hand" someone something, but:

Currently the droprate on Ifrit weapons is about 5%.

They could implement the system the EXACT way you describe and you could still get nothing for "all those people in your endgame shell" for 100+ runs.

And you would be here complaining even THAT system was unfair.

Rare loot is not unfair. Certain things should have rarity, but when they drop shouldn't we at least be able to decide who gets it?

I don't care about rarity. I care that myself, another lancer, a pugilist, a thaumaturge, a gladiator, an archer, a marauder and a fellow conjurer have all gotten multiple drops of Ifrit's Cane while a person who has been in our LS since almost the beginning, who carried this linkshell through tough times, who selflessly crafts and donates his time and resources for our linkshell cannot get a break on the drop he wants most.

If we had a loot system that worked, this man would have been the first person to have gotten what he wanted and everyone in our linkshell would have sat and applauded him because he deserved it.

Ditto for an archer who can't get bow she wants. A pugilist who had to watch countless others toss his drop before he finally got it. The list goes on... and I sit here wondering why all you can do is sneer at the fact that we were robbed of something in the game we enjoy: working as a team, and the pride in getting others the things we know they deserve.

[Dakin]

I guess you don't care then how your people get drops. Are you sure you are an "endgame community"? Typically equitable and organized loot distribution is a large reason that people join endgame shells over say casual shells which spam content 24/7 and claim "endgame".

I mean I can sit in ul'dah with /shout and do the same thing, anyone can do this content, you might be the only one still bragging about livestreaming it but you aren't the only one killing him every day but I'd still rather be in an LS with others who I rely on and see as a team working towards shared goals and accomplishments.

Being able to help our members get the items they need most is a huge boon to this. Something they took away with the Ifrit fight. Now we break up into parties of 8 to spam this content, while repeatedly having to toss items we know each other could use and wish we could give to them.



So? We did the same thing in beta, it doesn't matter if all we can do is form groups then we may as well just be statics within a casual LS (I mean no offense if you run your LS as a "elite static group" based charity), or even not as part of an LS just pick ups.

Endgame LS have continuity, at least ours did until Ifrit. In darkhold or the world NM's we geared all our members with the drops they needed, and we prioritized those drops so that people got what they needed first and their participation was rewarded equitably.

This is how endgame has always worked in MMO's. Square Enix took that away from with us the way Ifrit's loot works. Personal loot lists? It is a slap in the face of anyone who has a real endgame community.




Rare loot is not unfair. Certain things should have rarity, but when they drop shouldn't we at least be able to decide who gets it?

I don't care about rarity. I care that myself, another lancer, a pugilist, a thaumaturge, a gladiator, an archer, a marauder and a fellow conjurer have all gotten multiple drops of Ifrit's Cane while a person who has been in our LS since almost the beginning, who carried this linkshell through tough times, who selflessly crafts and donates his time and resources for our linkshell cannot get a break on the drop he wants most.

If we had a loot system that worked, this man would have been the first person to have gotten what he wanted and everyone in our linkshell would have sat and applauded him because he deserved it.

Ditto for an archer who can't get bow she wants. A pugilist who had to watch countless others toss his drop before he finally got it. The list goes on... and I sit here wondering why all you can do is sneer at the fact that we were robbed of something in the game we enjoy: working as a team, and the pride in getting others the things we know they deserve.

Still don't understand why you're against Need or Greed. It solves all the problems you've brought up while eliminating the issues we've argued that a craftable drop brings to the table.

[Murugan]

I guess you don't care then how your people get drops. Are you sure you are an "endgame community"? Typically equitable and organized loot distribution is a large reason that people join endgame shells over say casual shells which spam content 24/7 and claim "endgame".

I mean I can sit in ul'dah with /shout and do the same thing, anyone can do this content, you might be the only one still bragging about livestreaming it but you aren't the only one killing him every day but I'd still rather be in an LS with others who I rely on and see as a team working towards shared goals and accomplishments.

Being able to help our members get the items they need most is a huge boon to this. Something they took away with the Ifrit fight. Now we break up into parties of 8 to spam this content, while repeatedly having to toss items we know each other could use and wish we could give to them.



So? We did the same thing in beta, it doesn't matter if all we can do is form groups then we may as well just be statics within a casual LS (I mean no offense if you run your LS as a "elite static group" based charity), or even not as part of an LS just pick ups.

Endgame LS have continuity, at least ours did until Ifrit. In darkhold or the world NM's we geared all our members with the drops they needed, and we prioritized those drops so that people got what they needed first and their participation was rewarded equitably.

This is how endgame has always worked in MMO's. Square Enix took that away from with us the way Ifrit's loot works. Personal loot lists? It is a slap in the face of anyone who has a real endgame community.




Rare loot is not unfair. Certain things should have rarity, but when they drop shouldn't we at least be able to decide who gets it?

I don't care about rarity. I care that myself, another lancer, a pugilist, a thaumaturge, a gladiator, an archer, a marauder and a fellow conjurer have all gotten multiple drops of Ifrit's Cane while a person who has been in our LS since almost the beginning, who carried this linkshell through tough times, who selflessly crafts and donates his time and resources for our linkshell cannot get a break on the drop he wants most.

If we had a loot system that worked, this man would have been the first person to have gotten what he wanted and everyone in our linkshell would have sat and applauded him because he deserved it.

Ditto for an archer who can't get bow she wants. A pugilist who had to watch countless others toss his drop before he finally got it. The list goes on... and I sit here wondering why all you can do is sneer at the fact that we were robbed of something in the game we enjoy: working as a team, and the pride in getting others the things we know they deserve.

Still don't understand why you're against Need or Greed. It solves all the problems you've brought up while eliminating the issues we've argued that a craftable drop brings to the table.

Did you only play WoW? Why can't you read my response to you on this exact subject four posts up? I said that yes simply having anything except a personal loot list system would solve my problem as long as we could regain control over loot distribution.

Need for Greed however refers to a specific type of loot system where a dialogue box appears allowing you to "need" or "greed", and need option is often locked to the class you are on. This would not work for FFXIV. Any loot system is not called Need for Greed unless your only point of reference is WoW. Honestly... we always had a loot list in this game and we could pass stuff just fine. I'd be fine with that. We never had any problems with it because we are an organized LS which trusts all of its members. Now for people who don't have that luxury a master looter, or need for greed system, or various other types of loot options could be beneficial.

For us? It doesn't matter. We dealt with loot long ago, and we were doing just fine until Ifrit and his moronic loot implementation.

[Holland]

Did you only play WoW? Why can't you read my response to you on this exact subject four posts up? I said that yes simply having anything except a personal loot list system would solve my problem as long as we could regain control over loot distribution.

Need for Greed however refers to a specific type of loot system where a dialogue box appears allowing you to "need" or "greed", and need option is often locked to the class you are on. This would not work for FFXIV. Any loot system is not called Need for Greed unless your only point of reference is WoW. Honestly... we always had a loot list in this game and we could pass stuff just fine. I'd be fine with that. We never had any problems with it because we are an organized LS which trusts all of its members. Now for people who don't have that luxury a master looter, or need for greed system, or various other types of loot options could be beneficial.

For us? It doesn't matter. We dealt with loot long ago, and we were doing just fine until Ifrit and his moronic loot implementation.

So SE should make a loot system only for your perfect LS?

Without taking into account how we're going to do content come 2.0 with the content finder?

No thanks. You need to take into account all changes coming into the game and take into account all things can also be achieved with pick up groups, total strangers even from different servers. SE will adjust the need/greed system to satisfy the armoury system.

[Murugan]

So SE should make a loot system only for your perfect LS?

Without taking into account how were going to do content come 2.0 with the content finder?

No thanks. You need to take into account all changes coming into the game and take into account all things can also be achieved with pick up groups, total strangers even from different servers. SE will adjust the need/greed system to satisfy the armoury system.

lol I'm not gonna do anything with the "content finder" I'm gonna do it with my perfect LS.

You need to take into account that not everyone needs the false sense of loot security a crutch like "need for greed" provides (false because anyone can still click a button to "ninja" your loot). Some of us play with adults who understand equity in distribution. SE should design a loot system that allows people to at the very least pass items...

oh wait they did. In Beta. Then they forced a personal loot list on us with Ifrit and screwed over all "perfect linkshells" who had their loot distribution figured out and were happy with it. Now we watch as people go 3/3 on items others have gone 0/100 on. It is broken.

[Dakin]

Did you only play WoW? Why can't you read my response to you on this exact subject four posts up? I said that yes simply having anything except a personal loot list system would solve my problem as long as we could regain control over loot distribution.

Need for Greed however refers to a specific type of loot system where a dialogue box appears allowing you to "need" or "greed", and need option is often locked to the class you are on. This would not work for FFXIV. Any loot system is not called Need for Greed unless your only point of reference is WoW. Honestly... we always had a loot list in this game and we could pass stuff just fine. I'd be fine with that. We never had any problems with it because we are an organized LS which trusts all of its members. Now for people who don't have that luxury a master looter, or need for greed system, or various other types of loot options could be beneficial.

For us? It doesn't matter. We dealt with loot long ago, and we were doing just fine until Ifrit and his moronic loot implementation.

I know what Need or Greed is. I played WoW extensively. No need to imply that I don't understand what it is. If player A has Lancer, Marauder, and Archer 50, and goes to an event on Lancer, he should be able to Need on gear for all 3. I understand you're saying it wouldn't work because of the class system, a player with all classes rank 50 could Need on everything OR only Need on gear for his current class (both ways have flaws). How about a player gets to designate his top 2 or 3 classes to Need for?