Black Mage

[Galvuu]

It's not, really. By launch of Stormblood SAM was desired because DRG wasn't very strong so their raw damage could outdo DRG's utility. But then the buffs came and well the rest is history.[/SIZE]

This actually kills me. SAM was pretty competitive in 4.0- on the top 5 fastest Lak and Susie kills, you could find some groups with and some groups without Samurai. So they can make this balance work, they've done it before (the no utility VS utility)... they just need to redo it, now both for BLM and SAM (that fell off with the buffs to the meta comp).

[Llugen]

I feel like what REALLY happened is they buffed the jobs that felt clunky and didn't flow but that inadvertently made them stronger than SAM. But the heart of the issue is that BLM STILL feels clunky and doesn't flow unless you can literally stand there the entire time like a dummy, and even then I've always hated the RNG behind Thundercloud.

To disclaim at this point, since I feel like I basically sound like I've drunk the SMN koolaid (which I pretty much have), I have cleared all content during relevancy on BLM since launch. BLM has had a turbulent history of buffs/nerfs, but with the advent of NIN utility and then massive party utility in 3.x (AST, Battle Lit, Hypercharge, Shadewalker/Smokescreen), classes capable of offering said utility have ALWAYS been preferred for high end play, but if anything BLM has since lost its niche as the OP states (Apocatastasis) and is now in a worse spot than ever, also with particular regard to movement (casting Fire IV vs. instant cast Firestarter procs for damage).

[Galvuu]

snip

Since you touched on this, that's why I disliked TC refreshing AF or UI (aside from not fitting thematically)- having refreshes depend on rng procs makes the job even more rng dependant. The less rng the better, imho. It's already very "swingy" as far as getting lucky procs to handle mechanics go (or getting procs at appropriate times to get a TC in with all the buff/debuffs).
Just a side thought

I agree with your assessment, for whatever it counts. When SE isn't sure how to fix a job, then just bandaid it by raising the numbers... often not even fixing the actual issue (which may get fixed down the line, overtuning the class). Still sad that SAM was in a relatively good spot in 4.0

[NoctusT]

Since you touched on this, that's why I disliked TC refreshing AF or UI (aside from not fitting thematically)- having refreshes depend on rng procs makes the job even more rng dependant. The less rng the better, imho. It's already very "swingy" as far as getting lucky procs to handle mechanics go (or getting procs at appropriate times to get a TC in with all the buff/debuffs).

IMO our rotation is already that rng dependent as you stated. And even with 1900 sps you still can’t pull off certain things. For example, if you use a sharp thunder opener, and you get a thundercloud proc right before/during your fire 3 cast, you will have to drop a fire iv there in your over all rotation to fit in that extra thundercloud proc in phase 1 of astral fire. So it will end up something like fire iv x 3 > tc > fire 1 > fire iv x 4 with another fire 1 somewhere there in that second astral fire. So instead of 8 fire iv you end up with 7 and a thunder cloud proc with two fire 1 casts.

Now this is a specific example but there are other situations like this as well. So having TC refresh our AF/UI timers will give us some much needed breathing room. In the example I provided above, you’re already praying for fire 1 to proc firestarter so you can fit in all 8 fire iv casts. So having TC refresh your stacks would be very helpful and it would be more of a quality of life change than anything.

I do agree with you on the point of hating TCrng. It’s a great feeling when you proc TC right after hardcasting a thunder in a trick window. /s

TL;DR - our job is already that rng dependent on praying for firestarter procs. TC refreshing astral fire of umbral ice would be a nice quality of life change. Getting foul then hardcasting thunder into a trick window feels good until you get a TC proc in the middle of your B4 cast. In that case you just wanna drink some bleach.

[Kabooa]

Now this is a specific example but there are other situations like this as well. So having TC refresh our AF/UI timers will give us some much needed breathing room. In the example I provided above, you’re already praying for fire 1 to proc firestarter so you can fit in all 8 fire iv casts. So having TC refresh your stacks would be very helpful and it would be more of a quality of life change than anything.

Why not just Sharpcast the fire? You're already hardcasting a thunder here and you remove the chance of 'double' proccing. Why risk the last Fire 4 when you can just guarantee it?

[zuzu-bq]

Because assuming worst case scenario, sharping a Thunder is a better DPS gain. In the end it will variate on your procs but only with constant good scenarios you'll get a sharp Fire to be equal and if not better than Thunder. Do Sharp a Fire for situations you can't keep the stacks though, that is obviously a bigger gain.

On top of all of that making Thunder help on AF/UI be it by completly refreshing or adding a few extra seconds won't make BLM more rnd dependant than already it. It will only help on handling it better while boosting our mobility a bit and making the job easier to play for the average player altogether. It's a true win win win.

[EllieShadeflare]

I think granting Thunder the ability to add 3-4s to the AF/UI timer would be great. However, removing the GCD from Thundercloud'd Thunder might be a better solution, allowing you to weave it safely without risking Fire IV.

[Llugen]

Under my proposed correction to the Thunder dot becoming additive, it would be even better to Sharpcast Thunder III because that would mean 48 seconds of thunder ticking all at once (or 60, if they increased the dot to 30 seconds like I think they should, or 54 if 27, or what have you). The implications of this are firstly, less wasted ticks from early procs, secondly, more total chances at procs since you're adding not refreshing, and lastly, less penalty for needing to use a Thundercloud proc to move (or more incentive). Between that and increasing the duration of the actual proc to 30 seconds like RDM/SMN, the RNG would certainly still be there but it'd be much further in our favor than it is currently. In fact if your RNG is great, you may never need to hard cast another Thunder III in Umbral for a long time, meaning shorter Umbral phases.

I'm not sure where you're coming up with eight Fire IVs, it should be seven since the current rotation is F4 x3 > F1 > F4 x3 + Firestarter if you're lucky.

Might also be worthwhile if they allow ANY fire spell to proc Firestarter, so you could get one even from casting Fire IV, or if they would let you firestart Fire IV (or "combo" Fire > Fire III starter > Fire IV starter) as I suggested before. The biggest issue I see with this is further de-synchronization from Foul timing and a potential loss of the theoretical 45 second Blizzard IV magic vuln (if I'm pretending like I have a magic wand and get to fix the class however I want).

This is where the leniency of the Astral/Umbral timer would better help with upkeep, alongside instant casts for quick movements, and the implied PPS increases of more Thunder dot up for longer (and therefore more value for every Thundercloud), and theoretically more Fire IV and/or Firestarter per fire phase. This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say the potency of the job is fine if we re-imagine it to be more conducive for procs, movement, and management of the timers.

THIS is how 2.0 BLM worked. You got to move for a full five seconds if you got a Thundercloud back to back with a Firestarter (almost eight if you also used swiftcast!!), AND this is where the class's damage came from. See how much more mobile that is? Firestarters abound, and you could Aetherial Manipulation during ANY of them.

[Alkel]

I see many good ideas here to fix BLM here and i hope SE will read some and maybe use them.

Atm, i must say, BLM is a dying job.
Myself, i recently switched to RDM and even if im still learning the job, i must say: OMG, i feel so free now! Playing a job with flexibility and utility change everything.

I dont even see the point of playing BLM again: My group hate when im on BLM cuz they have to adapt to the turret position, i have no utility and despite the punishing rotation, there is no reward at the end.
With some practise on RDM im 100% sure i will have about the same DPS but without the punishing rotation and with utility.

So yes, BLM need some serious fix and its not only a question of DPS gain.

[Remedi]

Under my proposed correction to the Thunder dot becoming additive, .

The only reason I'm against this is because then SMN will want this too

also additive stacking to dots can lead to big problems in the long run