4.1 Dark Knight Feedback and fixes

[Crater]

So we role out dark mind for 1 attack then go right back to physical attacks and that is perfectly balanced. Second, no one is claiming dark is unusable, what is claimed is that it has less mitigation. Using TBN and dark mind for one attack while mitigating none of the damage around it is the whole point, other tanks mitigate and they have mitigation before during and after, we have this one and done button for 2/4 fights, a not at all in 1/4, and alot of usage in 1/4 (v2s). Thats hardly "amazing".

There's also the fact that Dark Mind is flat out just not really "amazing" even for its extremely specific, narrow purpose. It's only 15% mitigation until you give up a DA's worth of damage for it, and it has a short 10-second duration even though there are a lot of fights where heavy-hitting attacks are spaced 10-12 seconds apart and you have to choose which ones to use it on.And as insult-to-injury, when those things happen, you basically have to burn TBN to compensate, so you don't even get to pair it with DM.

Vengeance is basically flat-out superior to Dark Mind in, say, v2s, even though that fight is almost purely magical.

[TruebladeNuke]

I waited until after 4.1 released to see if any changes would come to DRK, and before I finally threw my own voice in. But seeing as how no changes came for DRK, I'm going to finally speak up. Let me start off by saying that despite always being a PLD at heart, I actually ended up loving DRK during Heavensward to the point of which I would take it more over PLD during my dungeon runs.

Why?

To some others, DRK was just another damage soaking tank that kept it's own HP up there through Dark Arts + Abyssal Drain combined with Blood Price and defense cooldowns. And while I myself did those things too... to me however... it was a matrix evasion tank. The fact that I could buff myself to having a roughly 40% dodge rate against all incoming enemy auto attacks on large pulls was very satisfying to me. IMO, THAT is what made DRK stand out from the other tanks to me when dealing with mass pulls. But the developers took that away with the release of Stormblood... by getting rid of Dark Dance. And to rub salt on that wound, they follow it up by increasing the MP cost of Dark Passenger. Suddenly, my favorite strategy of tanking as a DRK against mass mobs that was followed up off of the usual cooldowns of Blood Price, Abyssal Drain aggro control, and a standard defense cooldown... was no longer there. I wouldn't begin to really feel it though until I started taking DRK to level 70 after I got PLD up there.

And let me tell you, I just wasn't having anywhere near as much fun on DRK anymore. Oh sure, the new abilities are nice, but they don't help much when it comes to damage mitigation, save for the one you learn at level 70... which can then only be used at level 70. After a few runs of taking my DRK through lower level dungeons again, I couldn't help but feel that something was really off. And then I note the "Anticipation" skill that's sitting where "Dark Dance" used to be... and realize that one of my favorite damage migation strategies as a DRK is completely gone...

After I finally got around to WAR and started taking it to level 70 myself (and getting it to level 70 just a few weeks before Patch 4.1 came around to give WAR more buffs), I couldn't help but note that I was actually having more fun on WAR then DRK. Yes. You read that right. I was having more fun on WAR then DRK. (Mind you, I do play as all three tanks and have fun with all three) Combine that with the fact that I'm a PLD at heart and rather enjoying all the buffs PLD got for Stormblood... that alone should tell you that DRK went from being my top favorite tank to play as... to being my least favorite of the three the moment Stormblood launched. And it seriously saddens me. I can't be a matrix evasion tank as a DRK anymore... which was my #1 favorite thing about the job against mass pulls.

Long story short, I miss Dark Dance. I seriously do. And that raised MP cost of Dark Passenger is not helping matters. With all that said, I'd like to purpose my own suggestions to how to make DRK better in Stormblood. (Mind you, it's still useable in content, and I still play the job. I just don't like what the developers did to it for Stormblood) Some of which I'm about to suggest may very well result in me echoing what others have said already:

Suggestion #1: Buff Shadow Wall.
As it currently stands right now, it's basically just a weaker Sentinel with the same cooldown time. There's 2 possiblities I would like to suggest here for buffing Shadow Wall.

Possibility #1: Buff Shadow Wall's damage mitigation to 40%. This will make it exactly like Sentinel.

Possibility #2 (My preferred one): Decrease Shadow Wall's recast timer by a bit. If it's going to be weaker then Sentinel, it should have a shorter recast timer.

Suggestion #2: Change Dark Mind.
There's only one possibility I wish to suggest here.

Change Dark Mind from "Reduces Magic Damage by 15%. 30% if Dark Arts augmented" to "Reduces damage by 10%. 25% if Dark Arts augmented." (Dark Mind has a shorter cooldown compared to other defense cooldowns mind you)

Suggestion #3: Un-nerf the increased MP cost of Dark Passenger, bringing it back to Heavensward level of MP usage.
I don't think anything else needs to be said here.

Suggestion #4: Add a Dark Arts trait to "The Blackest Night"
"Dark Arts Effect: "The Blackest Night" shields everyone in your party within a certain range, totaling 10% of everyone's maximum HP. Gain 5 points of Blood Gauge for each shield broken." (I considered 10 points of blood gauge per shield broken, but in an 8 man party, that sounds kinda OP to me...)

And now... the big one...

Suggestion #5: Give "Dark Dance" back to DRK, complete with the Dark Arts trait of buffing the DRK's evasion by 20%. Delete "Anticipation" from the role actions and replace it with a re-worked "Foresight". (I have no details to share about how a re-worked "Foresight" would work as of now, so don't ask)

Have I mentioned how much I want my matrix evasion DRK tank back?

And those are the biggest changes I want to see. Heck, I would be pretty happy if they even just gave us back our Heavensward "Dark Dance" back. But I'd be very happy if they took all these suggestions for DRK and put them in as changes for DRK in the next patch... or a little later. (Heh, heh. "Happy" DRK. Is there such a thing?)

Now, mind you, this is just my opinion of course. I did make an effort to not have the changes come off as OP sounding, but I don't often take the time to actually think about how to make skills work for jobs. I usually just leave that to the developers... usually.

Alright, I've dropped my 2 cents. Carry on.

[Aomine1992]

They need to do a lot to DRK and with raids needing shielding a lot these days...looks at neo....TBN needs a rework

Maybe have DA buff it to a group shielding but causing a debuff where you can’t do it for like 60secs or so...for utilities sake because Almagest is just so much more manageable with the other two tanks who can group shield lol

Single target TBN can remain the same honestly but extend the buff time and fix some of the other mitigation like shadow wall which is complete trash lol and the whole mp management with this mediocre blood price is crappy and can affect dps as everything DRKs do is tied to mp except everything cost the same if not more then a aoe heal which is crazy to me

[Aana]

I see some questionable logic there too.

A: You completely missed my point.
B: I have repeatedly posted my preferences for Drk changes, and most line up with the most common complaints, but thanks for trying to paint me as the bad guy using TNG memes. I love the show.

To reiterate:

DRK works in practice because of raid design.

So it works in practice. K.

This past raid tier was one of the easiest in the game. As soon as we get something more on the level of Midas, that isn't overflowing with TBs that are Dark Mind Bait, I guarantee you'd start seeing problems.

IF we get something that we don't currently have THEN Drk will "start seeing problems".

Your entire statement is 'what if SE does a thing that makes drk worse! Therefore it needs a buff for the thing that hasn't happened.". Do you see the questionable logic there?

Did I say drk DOESNT need a buff? Nope. Did I say Drk is fine? Nope. I asked a question about your thought process you expressed in the forum because the process has some logical issues.

[Chrono_Rising]

A: You completely missed my point.
B: I have repeatedly posted my preferences for Drk changes, and most line up with the most common complaints, but thanks for trying to paint me as the bad guy using TNG memes. I love the show.

To reiterate:


So it works in practice. K.


IF we get something that we don't currently have THEN Drk will "start seeing problems".




Did I say drk DOESNT need a buff? Nope. Did I say Drk is fine? Nope. I asked a question about your thought process you expressed in the forum because the process has some logical issues.

Good we agree dark needs buffs. However, we are still ignoring facts presented that dark mind isn't the all powerful mitigation you think it is, which is all the more humorous because you are accusing Syzzle, and others, of the same thing. Dark Mind has alot of uses in 1 turn, and situational uses in 2/3 and near zero in 1/4.

Contrast this with the analogs on the other tanks:
Raw intuition: Useful in 3/4 turns
Shelltron: Useful in all turns

Compared to dark mind:
v1s: Only useful for tank busters or roar
v2s: good on most everything
v3s: nothing really
v4s ex death: mitigate fire damage maybe?
v4s neo: doesn't really auto so everyone is at about the same level

And btw, none of those are stand alone mitigations, they all need pairing to keep us alive. For the record this conversation is whether or not we have an in practice difference between warrior mitigation and dark knight, not if dark knight will suffer in imaginary turns and not if dark is only buffered by other means of defense. Which is why for the third time I have posted the above for our current turns, no guessing. In all of those dark is a mitigation short by one or more except for v2s, this is not a theoretical difference.

This doesn't even touch on the fact that dark mind is a 15% vulnerability reduction, which is not even the same amount of mitigation as a 20% parry or a 26% block. And if I want the same level of mitigation it means burning a second mitigation or dark arts my dark mind which is yet another example of a dps loss not present on the other tanks.

And speaking of dps losses for mitigating, this highlights yet another aspect of the game design itself being imbalanced. Many paladins will bun a shelltron on autos or aoe damage just to try and proc their shield swipe, it is a dps gain to mitigate on one tank and a dps loss to mitigate on the other. This makes no sense and is just poor design.

[SyzzleSpark]

A: You completely missed my point.

And you completely missed mine. I cited the relative ease and over-reliance on magical TBs inherent in the current raid tier as a possible reason why DRK's problems have been glossed over, and implied that it would be harder to gloss over them with a more difficult and less magic focused raid tier (using Midas as an example). There's no real argument against that idea that you've posited other than "but it might not happen" If you think DRK needs a buff and that it isn't fine, remind me why we are arguing again? "Yeah DRK needs a fix but don't imply that the current raid tier's easiness and magic focus might be a reason that it is not getting the attention it needs or we will have internet fisticuffs because... reasons?"

The implied argument you are making is that things will stay the same as they are now (and things work right now "in practice" as we've pointed out) and the implied argument that I am making is that things might not stay the same. There's no real advantage either argument has over the other. Things might continue as they are, or they could change. Since there's no certainty of one or the other, you being contrarian in favor of the opposing possibility adds nothing. My initial argument that you replied to didn't rule out the possibility that things might stay the same as they are for a time, but your argument says that because things are how they are right now, the possibility shouldn't even be considered. As I said, it adds nothing to the discussion.

But it doesn't matter because that is not the focus of the discussion to begin with. You believe that DRK needs buffs/is not fine, that is the core issue, and it will continue to need buffs/not be fine regardless of what raid content does. However, content is one of the lenses through which we view such matters. If a raid tier is easy enough and caters enough to a job's strengths and doesn't pick at its weaknesses (which you've acknowledged the existence of) it colors people's perception of what kind of attention that job needs, and how much. The fact that it works and is adequate right now does not A: invalidate the fact that DRK needs buffing and re-tuning or B: rule out the possibility of content getting harder and less magic focused.

Basically you're pitching a fit over semantics and peripheral arguments while claiming to agree with me on the main point of discussion, which overall detracts from the discussion. That's why I'm "painting you as the bad guy".

[Arek]

Compared to dark mind:
v1s: Only useful for tank busters or roar
v2s: good on most everything
v3s: nothing really
v4s ex death: mitigate fire damage maybe?
v4s neo: doesn't really auto so everyone is at about the same level

Correcting : I'm off tank on Omega, and on V3s, Dark Mind is "useful" on 1st and 2nd Add. But yeah still pairing it with something else and still need a buff (10% / 25% every damage can be not bad for his short CD as suggested above)

[Chrono_Rising]

Correcting : I'm off tank on Omega, and on V3s, Dark Mind is "useful" on 1st and 2nd Add. But yeah still pairing it with something else and still need a buff (10% / 25% every damage can be not bad for his short CD as suggested above)

This is fair, it is useful on the adds in v3s. In neo I'm not saying it has 0 uses only that the tanks are pretty much on the same footing since there is really nothing to mitigate except certain mechanics. No one really feels at an advantage except shelltron feels really op on this turn.

My main point is that compared to the analogs, in particular Raw Intuition, dark mind has lower uptime despite having a lower cooldown and in most turns is not mitigating as much during its uptime since the majority of current autos are physical in nature, some are fairly hard hitting.

[Aana]

Good we agree dark needs buffs. However, we are still ignoring facts presented that dark mind isn't the all powerful mitigation you think it is, which is all the more humorous because you are accusing Syzzle, and others, of the same thing. Dark Mind has alot of uses in 1 turn, and situational uses in 2/3 and near zero in 1/4.

Contrast this with the analogs on the other tanks:
Raw intuition: Useful in 3/4 turns
Shelltron: Useful in all turns

Analogs
Shelltron/IB/TBN
Sent/Vengence/Wall
Ramp/Ramp/Ramp
HG/HG/LD

Which leaves as analog
Raw/Mind/Bullwark: Phy high uptime, Magic high uptime, All type but less reliable low uptime.

ToB. The 'Extra' CD war has.

How exactly is Mind 'situationally' useful in 2 for crying out loud? Lets give credit where credit is due. TB is magic. Large number of AOEs that are magic. Cleaves are magic. That's not 'situational'. You know whats bad in that fight? Raw Int is junk in that fight. Raw int: Great in 1/3 bad in 2. Mind: Great in 1/2, bad in 3. Its usefulness in 4 depends on how you handle thunder 3s, but the common strat is just immune all 3 regardless of tank comp anyway and relegate mind to fluff magic damage like fires (Raw would only be used on the fluff AAs in that section as well. Neither gets 'great' use there).

I'm all for drk buffs. But im not gonna exaggerate issues. Everyone says Drk is playable, yet at the same time exaggerate how 'broken' it is. Its not THAT bad. It doesn't take much to close a ~5% damage gap and a ToB mitigation level gap. Make TBN safer/more reliable, and give sole survivor the shake it off treatment. Drk doesn't need some massive overhaul. There are minor issues, but not this apocalyptic BS spewed 24/7 here. 'Situational' use in a fight with almost entirely magic damage directed at tanks. Really?

[Chrono_Rising]

Analogs
Shelltron/IB/TBN
Sent/Vengence/Wall
Ramp/Ramp/Ramp
HG/HG/LD

Which leaves as analog
Raw/Mind/Bullwark: Phy high uptime, Magic high uptime, All type but less reliable low uptime.

ToB. The 'Extra' CD war has.

How exactly is Mind 'situationally' useful in 2 for crying out loud? Lets give credit where credit is due. TB is magic. Large number of AOEs that are magic. Cleaves are magic. That's not 'situational'. You know whats bad in that fight? Raw Int is junk in that fight. Raw int: Great in 1/3 bad in 2. Mind: Great in 1/2, bad in 3. Its usefulness in 4 depends on how you handle thunder 3s, but the common strat is just immune all 3 regardless of tank comp anyway and relegate mind to fluff magic damage like fires (Raw would only be used on the fluff AAs in that section as well. Neither gets 'great' use there).

I'm all for drk buffs. But im not gonna exaggerate issues. Everyone says Drk is playable, yet at the same time exaggerate how 'broken' it is. Its not THAT bad. It doesn't take much to close a ~5% damage gap and a ToB mitigation level gap. Make TBN safer/more reliable, and give sole survivor the shake it off treatment. Drk doesn't need some massive overhaul. There are minor issues, but not this apocalyptic BS spewed 24/7 here. 'Situational' use in a fight with almost entirely magic damage directed at tanks. Really?

I agree ex death basically the only thing I mitigate is auto’s since we tank ultimate through. But with 16k autos it takes a lot of pressure off healers and warrior can maintain that up time for nearly all the time it tanks (55 full seconds of 20% damage down or more of autos) which is a lot of mitigation for healers. After this you can swap to your co tank let them mitigate a healthy amount to the next tank buster, and then swap back and repeat what you did in phase 1 till it is dead. The key to that is 20 seconds of mitigation with raw intuition. It is very good at lowering your incoming damage since thats the majority of the damage being taken.

More importantly, I didn’t say that Dark Mind was situational in v2s, I said it was situational in 2 or 3 turns ( 2/3 ). It is why in my list (which is not in your quote currently) I say v2s good on just about everything.

Missing part of my quote:

Contrast this with the analogs on the other tanks:
Raw intuition: Useful in 3/4 turns
Shelltron: Useful in all turns

Compared to dark mind:
v1s: Only useful for tank busters or roar
v2s: good on most everything
v3s: nothing really
v4s ex death: mitigate fire damage maybe?
v4s neo: doesn't really auto so everyone is at about the same level

Another example of a quote from me in this thread about dark mind being good in v2s

So we role out dark mind for 1 attack then go right back to physical attacks and that is perfectly balanced. Second, no one is claiming dark is unusable, what is claimed is that it has less mitigation. Using TBN and dark mind for one attack while mitigating none of the damage around it is the whole point, other tanks mitigate and they have mitigation before during and after, we have this one and done button for 2/4 fights, a not at all in 1/4, and alot of usage in 1/4 (v2s). Thats hardly "amazing". If only someone outlined some examples of one tank having in practice better mitigation practices.

... There are minor issues, but not this apocalyptic BS spewed 24/7 here. 'Situational' use in a fight with almost entirely magic damage directed at tanks. Really?

See its things like this that makes you seem like the "bad guy" as you say. No one claimed that it was situational in that fight, in fact it was the fight I identify it as being the best in. Maybe it was a misunderstanding but there are so many examples of taking things out of context or ignoring details that it makes it seem more like you have a personal issue with dark knights trying to point out the issues and raise awareness and get changes from the developer rather than having a thoughtful and meaningful discussion. No one has claimed an apocalyptic state of dark knight, except you claiming that dark knights are claiming this.

For clarity, dark knight can run anything, and it can clear anything right now, there are turns which it has an advantage in, but it is 1 out of 5 fights and is at a disadvantage compared to the other two in the rest. However, looking at the whole picture we are behind in dps, mitigation, and utility. Is it a huge difference? Not when you cherry pick and look at just "one thing", when you take into consideration everything and see we are behind everywhere, then it starts to paint a bad picture of our future. Forgive us for not wanting to wait 2 years for fixes that we can identify now.