If DRG could have a wyvern and high DPS

[Charismatic]

so 10 dmg IS the shoot of RNG if DRG camp spot. party shoot 30 but be 20 if camp spot site took takes half dmg. right or rong.

No DRG for party, camp spot site with 30 dmg, but is it for 20 like 30 dmg when you no hit be it for dd, for 30 dmg instead? or half is 10 for 20 dmg?

One of my favorite posts of all time.

[Reliquia]

Large scale pvp isn't nice and sweet as oppose to 1v1. As soon as your wyvern pet dies, there goes a large percentage of your abilities with it. What I'm trying to say is, it is an unnecessary compromise holding the Dragoon back if something like that happens in pvp or pve, and when it does happens you're only at 50% of your full potential.

It is game breaking to have a strong DD with a strong pet as well.

In FFXI that was a problem, however there are ways to either reduce this problem. Already from the top of my head I can name a few, that means that the dev team should be be able to create a better solution.
- If the wyvern dies, have a low recast time on summoning.
- Increase the wyverns ability to stay alive. Take that you have a flying wyvern it shouldn't be hit by non-aerial AOEs, revert it's hate over to the dragoon, if it should still get low on hp there could be an ability where the dragoon sacrifices hp to the wyvern or an ability where the wyvern drains hp.

The possibilities are endless, which ones are good or not is something that the devs should look into but you get the point.

.. I'm going to copy what someone said. "think outside the box."

[CrystalWeapon]

well ok and thats the reason why it cant be made MUCH better in FF14? ;S
(well besides looking at the damage in comparison to the sam, i dont see why you cant compare it. oh i forgot its a pvp vid .. so jobs in pvp did other damage than in pvm)



you still are discussing in terms of the OLD system like it was in FF11 from 2003

as i said.. you can arrange recast timers to call your wyvern back in an other way than in FF11.. of about 1 minute or so (as an example)... but -after- calling your wyvern back with a whistle. he takes about 15 secs to fly back to his owner. so it isnt that about anymore the drg being useless till the end of the fight, he loses shortly the damage of the pet, because he didnt took that much attention onto the pet (because in my suggestions the drg has the abillity to cure his pet on his own)

also consider giving the drg a cure/reggen spell for his pet which the drg in FF11 hasnt.

and in FF11 a pet or wyvern was NOT effected by group heals/buffs, nor you could cure it really. the system was way too old fashioned so you comparing the disadvantages of that old fashioned FF11 system in mind. and thats the point.

it could be also be an advantage to transfer pain to your pet for a time (like other petclasses have in other MMOs), or sacrificing it to receive health back (in dangerous situations) and a stat buff as well. these are not completely skills invented by me.. those skills i have seen in 10 years of playing MMorpgs and different classes.

beastmaster and wyvern have been a bit gimpy because the system in FF11 wasnt that all good about. you had no real control over your pet. and the pets e.g. the wyvern hadnt that many different attacks... let SE add skills like (Bite, Dragon claw) etc. to him. but i think with the new UI in 2.0. there is hope for that. to control pets like you do in AION or WoW... as an example...

giving them own abillities, which you can command them any time. etc pp.
but please do not argue again "but in ff11..." no this is not. this is FF14 and we are in year 2011.



i just cant see the point that for FFXIV, the only MMorpg, it should be unable to create a petclass that works and is not gimped. why should it be the only one? each class needs to be balanced.. wether pet or non-pet class.

my last 2 cents to this topic in this thread (because i opened an own one concerning pet systems in FF14) i'd be glad to see your suggestions in there

It's being discussed in terms of the old system because the dev team said it would be implimented similar to the old system. They clearly said they would weaken the dragoon. I would be perfectly fine if dragoon got a wyvern in a similar fashion that the new pet job would use pets, and the same way we'll use mounts as companions.

I would love to see it if it were a pet that doesn't take any stats from the job using it, a pet that has it's own level and stats that could go up to the same level as the character calling it (i.e. a lv 50 dragoon being able to use a lv 50 wyvern with stats and damage to match), and a pet that doesn't hinder the dragoon's own ability set (i.e. dragoon can't use this breath attack because it's wyvern already uses breath attacks.)

When they do add diverse mounts to use / raise / fight along side, you can bet my mount will be a dragon if it's an option. Because it accomplishes the same goal as what you want and it doesn't take a damn thing from my character or it's abilities.

{Edit}
I keep hearing think outside the box.

If you really want to think outside the box why not suggest something along the lines of dragoon getting an ability where they fully or partially transform into a dragon. Neither my side of the arguement nor the opposing one is really putting out any original ideas whatsoever we just want to experience the job in our most favorable past experience. None of the ideas here are "thinking outside the box."

[Reliquia]

It's being discussed in terms of the old system because the dev team said it would be implimented similar to the old system. They clearly said they would weaken the dragoon. I would be perfectly fine if dragoon got a wyvern in a similar fashion that the new pet job would use pets, and the same way we'll use mounts as companions.

I would love to see it if it were a pet that doesn't take any stats from the job using it, a pet that has it's own level and stats that could go up to the same level as the character calling it (i.e. a lv 50 dragoon being able to use a lv 50 wyvern with stats and damage to match), and a pet that doesn't hinder the dragoon's own ability set (i.e. dragoon can't use this breath attack because it's wyvern already uses breath attacks.)

When they do add diverse mounts to use / raise / fight along side, you can bet my mount will be a dragon if it's an option. Because it accomplishes the same goal as what you want and it doesn't take a damn thing from my character or it's abilities.

It is a much more fair compromise than no wyvern/drake/dragon at all, but I don't think this would make much sense. The only possible solution I see for this to work on those terms is to have the external wyvern NPC as an extra PT member, in that case then you will mostly be using it solo.

For parties the wyvern would easily be thrown out to make room for another class/job (who for balancing reasons should be more useful than an extra NPC that uses pt space). Tt won't really be a part of the job then.

Then comes the second problem. The concept of a battle chocobo is still a bit unclear, but to me it sounded as if all classes could have a battle chocobo, clearly it wouldn't be fair to have the dragoon have two battle NPCs or to have more choices of external battle NPCs than other classes.

Having the Wyvern as an inseparable part of the job (till death do them part) is the only way for it to define the job.

{Edit}
I keep hearing think outside the box.

I was just tossing that line back at him. As for actually thinking outside the box I think that the idea that was proposed in this thread seems to have a lot more potential than what I have seen being proposed before.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ould-look-like

[CrystalWeapon]

It is a much more fair compromise than no wyvern/drake/dragon at all, but I don't think this would make much sense. The only possible solution I see for this to work on those terms is to have the external wyvern NPC as an extra PT member, in that case then you will mostly be using it solo.

For parties the wyvern would easily be thrown out to make room for another class/job (who for balancing reasons should be more useful than an extra NPC that uses pt space). Tt won't really be a part of the job then.

Then comes the second problem. The concept of a battle chocobo is still a bit unclear, but to me it sounded as if all classes could have a battle chocobo, clearly it wouldn't be fair to have the dragoon have two battle NPCs or to have more choices of external battle NPCs than other classes.

Having the Wyvern as an inseparable part of the job (till death do them part) is the only way for it to define the job.

There's no real simple solution to it, but yeah that's what I was getting at how it would have to function for everyone to be happy. Even putting the wyvern as it's own pt member still comes with it's own problems like you've pointed out.

It'd be very tricky to impliment w/o pissing off a large number of people.

[Andrien]

In FFXI that was a problem, however there are ways to either reduce this problem. Already from the top of my head I can name a few, that means that the dev team should be be able to create a better solution.
- If the wyvern dies, have a low recast time on summoning.
- Increase the wyverns ability to stay alive. Take that you have a flying wyvern it shouldn't be hit by non-aerial AOEs, revert it's hate over to the dragoon, if it should still get low on hp there could be an ability where the dragoon sacrifices hp to the wyvern or an ability where the wyvern drains hp.

The possibilities are endless, which ones are good or not is something that the devs should look into but you get the point.

.. I'm going to copy what someone said. "think outside the box."

I think I understand all your ideas that you and tonkra brought to the table. The wyvern survivability, I think it is somewhat closer to being good, but very broken in terms of balance. To me personally its not a traditional DRG. More like a pet job than a damage dealer. That is why I'm not 100% with it. Lets compare these ideas with the other group.

low recast time if died
immune to none aerial aoe
hp regen
can be cured by others
dragoon sacrifices hp to heal wyvern
can set abilities and commands
shared combo attacks

Vs

A DRG can do everything a wyvern can do without the aid of a wyvern
No dps and abilities shared/lost upon death of wyvern.


I've voiced my opinions the best I could. That is all I have to say folks.

[Tonkra]

To me personally its not a traditional DRG. More like a pet job than a damage dealer. That is why I'm not 100% with it. Lets compare these ideas with the other group.

thats a funny part... why ... WHY are you saying this? (the underlined) i DONT get it at all sorry. lol. Maybe thats american logic ( LOL). what are you thinking a petclass is for? for caring about a pet like a tamagotchi or pokemon or what are you thinking?

a petclass in many cases isnt there to support someone nor he is there to tank or whatever... so its reason to be in the game IS dealing damage... more than just a single character.
AND THIS is only about balancing. why do you think FF14 is the only game it doesnt work but in other games it does?

a char that does damage + a pet that does damage = high damage output (all in ALL)

I've voiced my opinions the best I could. That is all I have to say folks.

I gave you examples before what could be the advantages.. maybe you havent played a lot peclasses before.

i mean for example skills like "Transfer pain" which my summoner had in Lineage II or AION.. transfered a huge amount of damage (or all) to the pet itself, causes me to absorb a huge amount of damage. i killed 3 players at a time sometimes with that.. players without pets.
sacrificing the pet to receive instant healing and LP buff.
performing skillcombos on your own (FFXI)

in PVP: sending the pet to the healer to interrupt and damaging hin while you can attack an other character..

these are some of the advantages being a pet class...you have to know HOW to use those advantages directly.. and of course doing high damage because you have 2 characters to play.


i dont think that the drg in FF14 without wyvern for example will receive the possibility to heal himself (healing breath) nor can he perform skill combos on his own.. nor can he attack two players at a time
sure he will a damage dealer.. but not more. just in a different way. if you want it that way its really ok and your matter of taste.

but dont say a petclass isnt a damage dealing class, thats wrong^ thats very over-simplified

You cant compare it because SAM had way higher damage output.

Ahh k well comparing the damage output of both in the chat log (and looking at the HP bar) i cant see that SAM does more damage than the drg does (the ff11 comm ever was a bit kind of strange when it comes to that)... im not interested in "theoretical" things on the paper... if the drg has 10 accuracy points less than the samurai... and no one ever knows how much percantage that is. what about being one point just about 0,15%?

thats stupidy i think. well in that point its a pitty that FF11 hadnt a damage-o-meter. then we have seen who does REALLY more damage.

[Volsung]

Tonkra, I don't know if you were just being silly, but if we have to read your poor English, please don't slander an entire country.

[Nuru]

what are you thinking a petclass is for? for caring about a pet like a tamagotchi or pokemon or what are you thinking?

Actually a pokemon would be more useful than a wyvern since they do ALL of the DPS.

[Esk]

lol wow this is still going?!
Got some nice solutions though people, but i never really thought making the wwyvern work game play wise would be hard this time around, loads of options available to look at for pet classes and AI and a load of good ideas here too.

I just still see the main issue being I (and a lot of people it seems) want a more Classic style DRG over the XI version, that is not a pet class, and doesn't screw up the interesting lore we have so far. :P