Dear Healers who don't DPS

[Cynfael]

I'm just reporting what I see. I've already said that my experience is limited. I am not claiming that I'm right in saying that most post-50 trash mobs are immune to stun from the start. I will say that I stand by what I said. I am not confusing trash with bosses/mid-bosses and I'm not talking about repeated hits. I hardly play WHM, and I don't play it well so the amount of time using Holy is further limited. My data points are too few to really draw any conclusion. However, I am not mistaken in what I am reporting.

As the others have said, stun-immune trash is few and far between. Maybe you're confusing the delay in application of the stun effect with it not being effective at all? Like players, mobs generally get to execute their actions if they are already at or very near completion when the CC hits, so a round of autos and abilities tends to be firing just as the stun is applied. Aside from the mobs not moving for a few seconds, you can tell that stun is in place since the icon will show on enemy status bars if it's working.

But no, Holy is insanely effective on virtually everything in the game, aforementioned examples excluded.

[Miste]

100 pages! rawr!

I'm just reporting what I see. I've already said that my experience is limited. I am not claiming that I'm right in saying that most post-50 trash mobs are immune to stun from the start. I will say that I stand by what I said. I am not confusing trash with bosses/mid-bosses and I'm not talking about repeated hits. I hardly play WHM, and I don't play it well so the amount of time using Holy is further limited. My data points are too few to really draw any conclusion. However, I am not mistaken in what I am reporting.

Well you have a few vets in here telling you that what you see is flawed somehow by your perspective. Either by mistake or because you aren't really seeing what is happening.

I mean you are just contradicting yourself. If you acknowledge your experience is limited and that you don't have enough data to draw a conclusion then why do you still "stand by what you said" and not actually acknowledge what we are telling you?

I'm sorry, but, yes you are mistaken in what you are reporting. The idea "just in my experience" doesn't work on a game design mechanic. Everyone's experience with which mobs are stunnable is exactly the same as everyone elses. The game doesn't randomly choose what mobs are stunnable when you go into content. They either are stunnable or they aren't and we are telling you with experience that the majority of trash in dungeons are stunnable.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

The problem and the reason this thread is "toxic" in my opinion is that both sides are trying to some part push their way of thinking as the right way, while the others is the wrong way. What's wrong with both arguments is that neither side wants to be accepting of anything then what they are defending. But when we bought this game and paid the sub we were supposed to accept the fact that everyone is different some will heal and DPs and some won't. The problem is the neither side wants to accept this and thats what makes it toxic.

At a cursory glance it may seem that way, however the pro DPS is frequently strawmaned. No one here advocating for healers to DPS ever do so with the perception DPS should take precedence over all else. We simply want some form of contribution. This debates derives from some people insisting healers only need to heal, regardless of the circumstances. There could be next to no outgoing damage and they'll argue they shouldn't have to DPS. If calling out these players is deemed toxic, I'll happily wear the label.

[MoroMurasaki]

They either are stunnable or they aren't

What I came here to say. Miste you're the best.

If calling out these players is deemed toxic, I'll happily wear the label.

The best response to that.

I just popped on to say I think we've all been through a lot in the past 100 pages of this thread. We have seen strawmans and "pure" healers and some if the least logical arguments ever (flash-only PLD anyone? Who considers that a defensible point, honestly?) but I think in a sense we have come to something resembling a conclusion.

The people who advocate for healers having the option to not DPS have more or less all said that they do DPS on their healers. Whether this is true or they are just placating the pro-DPS camp is ultimately irrelevant as when this thread is read by some new player in the future (even piecemeal) it will show that whether an individual argued for or against healer DPS as a whole they seemed to think the practice superior than the alternative (no dps healing) because they did it themselves.

There are very few healers participating in this discussion who actually support healers not contributing damage, instead there are only arguments about specific situations where healers may or may not be expected to contribute damage. This marks a pretty big turning point for this argument as a whole - we seem to be able to agree healer DPS is superior to overheal/standing still which is not something that could be said 100 pages ago.

At the end if the day while I underatand we may still have a ways to go in terms of discussions surrounding Duty Roulette or newish healers I think the fact that we have a foothold to say "Healers contributing damage are in general superior to healers standing idle or overhealing" is something to be happy about. This discussion is moving in the right direction and in another hundred pages maybe we can finally shut it down for good and (like the tank and DPS forums) dedicate our time to the productive discussion of how we can contribute more damage instead of whether we should contribute any in the first place.

[Raqrie_Tohka]

dedicate our time to the productive discussion of how we can contribute more damage instead of whether we should contribute any in the first place.

How to contribute more damage:

Get a Paladin to tank.
Paladin self-heals while blinding, stunning, and invulnerable to 20 mobs in the room.
Healer does juicy dps.
???
Profit.

Next phase of discussion: Buff tanks, or redesign the damage mechanics so tanks don't need healing as long as they "don't fvck up". Then healers can both heal, and dps, without (gasp) them being contradictory states. Or, introduce something akin to the priest in WoW, who gives shielding and healing based on damage done.

[MoroMurasaki]

(gasp)

I feel like my post was clear enough that this is more satire than substance. I also feel like my proposed discussion had enough of an example (the tank and DPS forums) for this to not be a legitimate confusion.

Your suggestions aren't actually helpful and your sarcastic (gasp) can go fly a kite.

From what I have seen of the pro-DPS camp these are not the kind of people that cry for buffs and nerfs all the time, more the sort to have a meaningful discussion around the best use of GCDs and/or abilities. As we hopefully see this debate become more dormant I simply hope those productive discussions can take it's place.

As far as the WoW suggestion I am always hesitant to accept anything from that game and I don't think it fits the current damage model of FFXIV. You don't need your healing tied into your DPS in order for your DPS to be meaningful here.

[Miste]

What I came here to say. Miste you're the best.

Aww xD

/10char

[Raqrie_Tohka]

Your suggestions aren't actually helpful and your sarcastic (gasp) can go fly a kite.

From what I have seen of the pro-DPS camp these are not the kind of people that cry for buffs and nerfs all the time, more the sort to have a meaningful discussion around the best use of GCDs and/or abilities. As we hopefully see this debate become more dormant I simply hope those productive discussions can take it's place.

As far as the WoW suggestion I am always hesitant to accept anything from that game and I don't think it fits the current damage model of FFXIV. You don't need your healing tied into your DPS in order for your DPS to be meaningful here.

Chill your kites, the discussion is happily going in the right discussion and you're getting all tense from a single joke. If my suggestions aren't helpful, then perhaps you'll explain to everyone, in more detail and clarity, how there are possibilities to not make healing and dpsing two opposite ends. While we probably don't need something as extreme as doing dps to heal people, we could perhaps explore options such as healing giving innate small dps buffs or one-off damage extras; or a two-part "bouncing" heal which first heals, then bounces into an enemy for small damage. It may even be possible to introduce class mechanics which synergize with healing to do more damage, such as a buff which "absorbs" healing to charge up damage, or a "dormant" heal-buff which activates after X number of actions on the character it's on, if the character takes more damage than does GCD then the buff expires as a heal, if not, as a damage buff. We can be very flexible and there are much possibilities.

And all I really want to say is, regardless of the fact that healers can and should always do some dps, doing dps and healing are still opposite concepts, and exist as tradeoffs as per the current design. A recent change for DRG trying to make "not applying a specific buff less penalizing" is a step in the right direction, in which we could envision "make healers not dpsing with pure dps skills less penalizing, and less having to do a hard tradeoff between healing and dpsing".

So now I will show myself out and go fly a kite, as I had been doing for the whole of past week. Not a single post for a whole week, and when I post I'm instantly told to go fly a kite. You people really should try to be less tense around here. And maybe take some time off to make a joke or two, hmm, maybe engage in some creative thinking, instead of being all hyper productive and optimizing your GCDs.

[MoroMurasaki]

snip

I make a post about being proud of the progress we have made towards this entire discussion being less arguing over stupid things and looking forward to what the future might be for the healer forum if it isn't dominated by this DPS debate.


I tend not to jump to conclusions about tone in text conversations but this person makes a sarcastic response complete with a (gasp) in it to show their dismissive tone towards my statement.

I am a bad person for responding to their sarcasm with some snark of my own.

If this is the kind of "safe space" you need where someone calling you out on your disrespect is just too much to deal with then I think the internet isn't a safe place for you to be. In general you might want to avoid places designed with communication and discussion in mind.

If you want to make a joke thread feel free. Make a funny sandwich comment, those occupied many of us in this thread for a few pages. What you probably shouldn't do (if you're unable to handle some pushback) is sarcastically respond to a valid comment in this thread (by someone (me) who is pretty clearly full of passionate feelings on this subject) with satire.

If you notice I responded to the only potentially serious point of your post (the WoW priest) just like I would any other. We are actually a pretty cool bunch of people overall and I'd like to think most of us are open to this "creative thought" you speak of. This...

How to contribute more damage:

Get a Paladin to tank.
Paladin self-heals while blinding, stunning, and invulnerable to 20 mobs in the room.
Healer does juicy dps.
???
Profit.

Next phase of discussion: Buff tanks, or redesign the damage mechanics so tanks don't need healing as long as they "don't fvck up". Then healers can both heal, and dps, without (gasp) them being contradictory states.

... however is not "creative thought", it's poking fun at the potentially deep and interesting discussions surrounding minmaxing and healer DPS which I personally would enjoy having.

tl;dr - you are butthurt. I am sorry you are feeling bad. Maybe if you are this sensitive (so much so you felt the need to start another "toxicity" thread in General Discussion this morning as well, gotta love those) you shouldn't put yourself in these situations. Either develop thicker skin or don't get snarky with people on the internet. They aren't all as nice as me.

To everyone else I am sincerely sorry that this has derailed this thread as much as it has. It isn't something I could just let sit and that is on me.

[Ilyrian]

One small request to all my WHT brothers and sisters: please, please don't use Fluid Aura to knock mobs away from the tank.
I just had to endure this leveling a WAR and it was the most screen-punchingly annoying thing ever.
In before someone says it helps with less damage on the tank: just no. stop it now. <3