WAR raid "UTILITY" (Tank Balanced achieved?)

[Claire_Pendragon]

10 and 11 also have a number of magical mechanics and busters

idk 6 and 8 well enough, but 10 and 11 definitely didnt have magical busters.
(its why ppl mentioned PLD MTs for 11 instead of DRK alone, due to there being too many physical TBs.)

- That's not a contradiction regarthless of rotation or situation if you have a drk in your party you will maximize more damage by having him as MT as it will do more damage and the other 2 tanks will do more damage as you later pointed out.

Im not following what your saying. if a WAR stays in deliverance, even in MT position, they will out DPS a DRK who was outside of grit while MTing. I can only agree if you're suggesting a DRK in grit does more dmg than a WAR in defiance.

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSwjtz1Jvg4

It seems I mistaken his 4 PLD and 4 WAR run on A12S with his Thoradan run, which was all WARs then. (I had forgotten about this.)

-war did not do more damage as mt, stance dance=/= tanks stance, if for some reason drk had to saty the whole fight in tank stance drk did more damage overall. war was just op stance dancing mt was the strongest in everything. most of the fights in HW had magic tank buster then they change it but it didn't change anything as drk+war still offered more mitigation and damage.

If peopel did it right, u never needed to be in tank stance ever. Just swap, and double up on CDs, since you always had CDs on the OT, that werent being utilized, and with WAR they had them constantly.
I dont really see where you get DRK did more dmg as a MT out of grit. It just doesnt add up. If you're staying out of tank stance, or even dancing, then your DPS should be comparable to your OT DPS, which we know WAR did more of. Plus DRKs need to waste a GCD to turn on grit only hindered them further, worse than a WAR wasting a GCD to Inner Beast.
The only thing DRK had, was reprisal, which was a DPS gain over Vengeance, but not to WAR as a whole.

- I don't know where to begin but if you think the difference was only 100 dps you are denial not only the difference was higher and the fflogs for pallys were mostlly inflated warriors could more constantly bring those numbers pld could only reach it with dedicated groups, not only that the dps gain didn't came only in personal damage, warrior constant slashing debuff and physical damage debuff allowed for dps to hit harder and healers to dps more, combine with drk you had a full magic/physiscal 10% mitigation warrior self sustain also translated into more healer dps, you will overall net more dps with a warrior than what you could ever done with a paladin.

My numbers solely came from early reports of the differences of tanks at 3.0, not later. I never really looked into the differences after each patch, solely because I was the kind of person who would bring double PLDs, because I honestly didnt care that much. I just happen to see what people are saying, took a small look, and didnt dwell on it too much patch after patch.


But I still agree that the balance of SB is better than HW. My only point was that just about any hard core DRK MT could do more DPS if they tried to MT as WAR. (But no hardcore raid group wants to double up on jobs due to LB nerf. Putting DRK or PLD in the OT slot would reduce total raid dmg, but if both MT and OT were WAR, then you wouldnt lower raid dmg.)

I think the better arguement of DRK MT, isnt about it being over WAR, but it being over PLD.
idk the exact numbers, but I did hear PLD got closer to DRK after the patches.
The issue I would see, is that RoH wasnt going to be used for DPS, so the -STR isnt being applied, where as delirium is being applied for -INT.
Then reprisal is -10%, while shield swipe is a useless pacify.
The only thing PLD had, to help with raid DPS, was hallowed ground, but even then, living dead can be comparable, depending on the situation. (Including having a WHM instead of AST/SCH combo)

suggest buffing sole survivor so that it converts party dps into an hp and mp refresh on the party by taking % of average party dps

Actually just make it so each attack landed ont he enemy is a small heal to HP, MP, and TP, by a % of their max. This encourages ppl to kill that target, if there are multiple targets, and isnt too broken for getting healer MP back. Id also make it not work on the DRK, since the DRK is getting HP/MP at the end.

[Shinkyo]

And WAR only having 20 secs every 2 mins is why WAR is hard to maximize dps.

I've taken all 3 tanks in savage and DRK IMO is the hardest to maximize DPS, WAR being fairly easy for me.
DRK's rotation is so streamlined that there isn't much personal optimization possible. DRK's main dps optimization is to maximize potency within party buff windows, and you have to carefully manage blood and mp for it.
To me this is harder to optimize DRK because you don't have personal buffs that really sets your rotation. You have to rely on external indication. The only personal indication is C&S that you can use to track the 60s timer of TA, Chain, Embolden, etc.

Don't get me wrong, though. It's much easier to screw up your DPS on WAR/PLD. But really pushing DPS to the max is for me harder on DRK.

[Aana]

Thanks for reminding me Chrono, I do wish more people understood what TBN being a DPS loss really means. Most just parrot "ITS A DPS LOSS" like its the end of the world. As you state, it is -6 potency per use. Considering 15 sec is roughly 1600 potency (6 gcds, avg 266ish) then you loose 6 out of 1600 potency if you use TBN on cooldown. That is 0.389%. A fraction of 1%. Another way, if you do 3000 DPS during a fight, use TBN out of grit EVERY 15 sec for the ENTIRE fight, your DPS would drop by a whopping 11.6. 11 dps per 3 THOUSAND. Technically it is a DPS loss in the most literal terms. But dear god it doesn't have any practical meaning. THIS IS NOT WHY DRK HAS PROBLEMS. Jesus. Its completely inconsequential to balance.

While were at it, lets clear up some other common misconceptions.

* "War does more damage and has best mitigation of all tanks" Sorta-ish. This takes a slightly more nuanced view.

* War does the most damage if all tanks live in tank stance.
* War does the most damage if all tanks are NOT in tank stance.
* War has the most mitigation in tank stance (though hinging on pld passive shield procs Pld could be here. Either way higher than Drk)
* War is the SQUISHIEST tank NOT in tank stance by a HUUUGE margin.

The 4th point is the often overlooked part. In this current meta it is a very important thing to keep in mind.

War has 1 more CD than Drk without an equivalent (ToB). Pld does too (only if you use passage as a personal mitigation tool instead of raid mitigation which is debatable itself. I don't see it used that way.) So yes, in tank stance, war has the most personal mitigation CDs and is the toughest to kill between that bonus, equilibrium, and IB generally being a smidge better than both TBN/Shelltron for mitigation while doing excellent tank stance damage (upheaval, IB ignoring penalty, Unchained+zerk etc). However, the point is generally to AVOID tank stance in the current meta so being the best tank in tank stance isn't all its cracked up to be.

Similarly, war does the most damage in OT position. (Theres a reason war is always the OT, this is half of it). Great. Whoo. However it is also monstrously squishy in deliverance. Which is the other half.

Pld/Drk retain their entire defensive kits outside of tank stance. War (with its 1 extra CD while in defiance) looses IB, the single best, most frequent CD in the game. Drk/Pld retain shelltron and TBN. Imagine tanking outside grit WITHOUT TBN. It would be shit. Just like war without IB. I would trade my 'extra' CD every day of the week to maintain access to IB outside tank stance (and it would be more than a 6 potency loss mind you). Pld is even better off as they have a shield that randomly reduces damage on top of their entire kit in either stance.

This is why I don't see any great imbalance. On paper War is the end all tank. Most mitigation in tank stance. Most damage in tank stance. Most damage out of stance with the minor trade off of being squishy as shit in deliverance. But the way this game is played that is a SIGNIFICANT detractor.

This is why war is the 'OT' all the time. Because we cant MT in DPS stance nearly as well as either pld or drk. Please remember these points before parroting out for the millionth time that "War has the best mitigation so drk needs buffs" as justification. The way the game is played war has the least mitigation. Who the hell sits in tank stance for fights? The entire goal of the last few years of tank meta has been to get OUT of tank stance. I'm not trying to 'woe is us wars' or anything. But I do want people to at least see the whole picture. Deliverance tanking is REALLY painful, yet there is a persistent idea that war has all this mitigation, but its completely locked behind defiance. War deliverance tanking is a serious liability to the group pld/drk do not share.

[Chrono_Rising]

idk 6 and 8 well enough, but 10 and 11 definitely didnt have magical busters.
(its why ppl mentioned PLD MTs for 11 instead of DRK alone, due to there being too many physical TBs.)

In 10 all the stack and spread mechanics were magic based. 11 Had the hawk eye thing... I forget what it was but it put a massive circle around you and hit fairly hard and since your healers were far away it needed cooldowns in prog with autos. Also the dash mechanics were magic based but I doubt anyone mitigated for this. On this subject we have the 11 killer of pld on this turn, which was that you could holmgang and living dead through almost all of the actual tank busters and never do the mechanic where as pld at 7 minutes could not cheese as many. Though this issue went away as people got faster the stigma remained.

[Claire_Pendragon]

* War is the SQUISHIEST tank NOT in tank stance by a HUUUGE margin.

Imo, WAR's less squishy, if we're talking about continuous dmg, rather than TBs. If we're talking about TBs, then thats also debatable. Holmgang does line up with most major TBs, leaving more CDs for other spots. (Though holmgang can be viewed as squishy too, dependent on perspective.)
For the filler auto attacks, Raw Intuition helps a ton compared to DRKs options for filler/cleave dmg. (more so cleaves, as they are min busters and hit more often)
DRK does make up for it, with some of its light self healing per Soul Eater. (and if DA is saved for soul eater more, then it will heal a small % more)

As for the -6% on TBN, technically its lower, but thats a whole 'nother argument (along side factors of comparing MP to CnS to basic DA)
(I forget the number, but I think it was 32 potency. I'd have to go searching around for how they came up with this number, as it makes sense when looking at the math, but I forget the process on how they figured it out, and what most ppl were forgetting when doing the math)
but the main thing to consider, SE didnt want TBN to be used on CD like plunge, they wanted it to be for actual emergencies, and a means to "Catch up" the dmg, so it has to be a loss. (just how little the loss is, is of course the argument, and even 30 potency isnt world shattering.)

In 10 all the stack and spread mechanics were magic based. 11 Had the hawk eye thing... I forget what it was but it put a massive circle around you and hit fairly hard and since your healers were far away it needed cooldowns in prog with autos. Also the dash mechanics were magic based but I doubt anyone mitigated for this. On this subject we have the 11 killer of pld on this turn, which was that you could holmgang and living dead through almost all of the actual tank busters and never do the mechanic where as pld at 7 minutes could not cheese as many. Though this issue went away as people got faster the stigma remained.

Stack and Spread? you mean the traps? Fairly sure they were physical, except the ice spikes, and even then u cant lower thier dmg with delirium. just dark mind. (plus u shouldnt be getting hit by this)
As for 11, i have no idea what u mean about hawk eye, other than the OT being hit by a proximity attack, which im fairly sure raw intuition worked on. (The dash mechanics were going to have everyone hti by an AoE heal, so mitigating it was a waste of a CD. If everyone is hit for 5k dmg, and everyone gets healed for 5k, taking 3k means u get over healed by 2k.)

[Shinkyo]

* War is the SQUISHIEST tank NOT in tank stance by a HUUUGE margin.
The 4th point is the often overlooked part.

This is quite an over statement.
While I would agree that WAR loses more defensive option in DPS stance by not having IB, the combinaison of their long duration, short CD mitigation, and frequent invul make up for it.
They are more squishy but certainly not by a huge margin. Block is the main feature that puts PLD on top for passive mitigation.

I don't think WAR even needs IB to have their CD toolkit compete with PLD/DRK in actual fights.

And WAR is actually a pretty bad OT compared to DRK/PLD because of their lack of utility. If you ain't sharing MT responsibility across both tanks to maximize CD uptime, then main reason to have WAR OT is because they are really good on adds.

[Chrono_Rising]

Thanks for reminding me Chrono, I do wish more people understood what TBN being a DPS loss really means. Most just parrot "ITS A DPS LOSS" like its the end of the world. As you state, it is -6 potency per use. Considering 15 sec is roughly 1600 potency (6 gcds, avg 266ish) then you loose 6 out of 1600 potency if you use TBN on cooldown. That is 0.389%. A fraction of 1%. Another way, if you do 3000 DPS during a fight, use TBN out of grit EVERY 15 sec for the ENTIRE fight, your DPS would drop by a whopping 11.6. 11 dps per 3 THOUSAND. Technically it is a DPS loss in the most literal terms. But dear god it doesn't have any practical meaning. THIS IS NOT WHY DRK HAS PROBLEMS. Jesus. Its completely inconsequential to balance.

Yes, but this is a completely unnecessary penalty. Giving that 6 potency to drk isn’t about fixing the balance per se and 6 potency won't make dark op as hell either, 6 potency will not close the damage gap even slightly; its making the class consistent with its own design (everything and its mother is 140 potency gain when using dark arts TBN costs a dark arts and returns a dark arts – 6 potency why LOL) while simultaneously not punishing the tank for mitigating. As you said, fixing this part of TBN’s mitigation aspect just makes the utility favorable to use and increases darks standing with its own utility.

War has 1 more CD than Drk without an equivalent (ToB). Pld does too (only if you use passage as a personal mitigation tool instead of raid mitigation which is debatable itself. I don't see it used that way.) So yes, in tank stance, war has the most personal mitigation CDs and is the toughest to kill between that bonus, equilibrium, and IB generally being a smidge better than both TBN/Shelltron for mitigation while doing excellent tank stance damage (upheaval, IB ignoring penalty, Unchained+zerk etc). However, the point is generally to AVOID tank stance in the current meta so being the best tank in tank stance isn't all its cracked up to be.

Dark: Rampart, TBN, Shadow Wall, Dark Mind
Warrior: Rampart, TOB, Vengence, Raw intuition (Am I missing one?)
The issue here is one of usefulness and uptime. Vengeance and raw intuition are both longer and vengeance is on a shorter cooldown than Shadow wall on dark. Raw intuition is on a longer cooldown, but the cooldown is not proportional to the duration, it is 30 seconds shorter than you would expect compared to dark mind. The difference comes from TBN, but again the meta optimizing world wants to avoid this for being a small loss for mitigating (please just give us the 6 potency). Sure it can help healers, but why not tank swap constantly and have both tanks cycle their mitigation without the dps loss (possible with paladin war) and have even more mitigation for healers to dps. In fact this works well since shirk is a tank dps gain and needs frequent reuse (minute to minute and a half reuses to maximiz). It is crazy but you don’t need tank stance, or enmity combo. But these small differences in mitigation duration add up and make warrior not as squishy as one would expect, provided we aren’t trying to solo tank things anymore. The issue is this turn does not utilize as many magical autos, which puts dark mind at a disadvantage for in between mitigation, where warrior and paladin are both well equipped to deal with these things. As for paladin, bulwark is a chance at mitigating. Which means it might be helpful, or it might not be, I’ll definitely pop it and it probably will help, buts it is not 100% parry, and its cooldown is eternal. Paladin also has its natural block rate, but like parry no one can plan around these and so we sorta pretend they aren't their even though they do add up to paladin taking less damage overall.

Warrior excels with mitigation because war’s kit is packed with shorter duration cooldowns which mitigate for longer than the other two alternatives, without considering its extra mitigation which is definately a major a dps loss and should only be used in an emergency.

This is why war is the 'OT' all the time. Because we cant MT in DPS stance nearly as well as either pld or drk. Please remember these points before parroting out for the millionth time that "War has the best mitigation so drk needs buffs" as justification. The way the game is played war has the least mitigation. Who the hell sits in tank stance for fights? The entire goal of the last few years of tank meta has been to get OUT of tank stance. I'm not trying to 'woe is us wars' or anything. But I do want people to at least see the whole picture. Deliverance tanking is REALLY painful, yet there is a persistent idea that war has all this mitigation, but its completely locked behind defiance. War deliverance tanking is a serious liability to the group pld/drk do not share.

I disagree that warrior tanking in dps stance detracts from the groups, as the interval it is tanking for can be covered by its mitigation kit, and by the time it is time to tank again (after the other tank has their turn) your cooldowns will likely be back up and ready for use, this is not mirrored as well in the other tanks. While we are talking about meta, warrior does fine while main tanking in dps stance, and does it about as well as the other two (provided blood spiller is given that 6 dps). The problem comes from trying to solo tank a turn in dps stance the entire time. However, this isn’t unique to warrior, it is much less than optimal for any of the tanks to solo things. While technically possible its shorting either the tanks or the healers or worse everyone. Frequent tank swapping is one meta practice that really needs to make its way into more of gaming life as it is very beneficial to both tanks and healers.

[Chrono_Rising]

Stack and Spread? you mean the traps? Fairly sure they were physical, except the ice spikes, and even then u cant lower thier dmg with delirium. just dark mind. (plus u shouldnt be getting hit by this)
As for 11, i have no idea what u mean about hawk eye, other than the OT being hit by a proximity attack, which im fairly sure raw intuition worked on. (The dash mechanics were going to have everyone hti by an AoE heal, so mitigating it was a waste of a CD. If everyone is hit for 5k dmg, and everyone gets healed for 5k, taking 3k means u get over healed by 2k.)

I've forgotten too much of a10s to remember the stack/spread mechanic. I call it that because thats how you handled it and it was magical in nature.

A11s Optical sight aoe damage (the unavoidable kind not the center mechanic) was magical as well as whirlwinds, and especially double whirlwinds, also if you weren't skipping lapis phase the ending mechanic to that phase was also magic in nature and delirium would help. There are actually a ton more aoe magical mechanics in a11s than there were physical tank busters. Spin crusher was physical but completely avoidable and the stack one was physical but we could use our ultimates through it. What made a11s hard was definitely not the tank busters, but part of the difficulty was high magic raid damage following eachother or worse following 1 HP attacks. Of course a11s was hard for groups for other reasons too but it had nothing to do with the classes.

[Aana]

This is quite an over statement.
While I would agree that WAR loses more defensive option in DPS stance by not having IB, the combinaison of their long duration, short CD mitigation, and frequent invul make up for it.
They are more squishy but certainly not by a huge margin. Block is the main feature that puts PLD on top for passive mitigation.

I don't think WAR even needs IB to have their CD toolkit compete with PLD/DRK in actual fights.

And WAR is actually a pretty bad OT compared to DRK/PLD because of their lack of utility. If you ain't sharing MT responsibility across both tanks to maximize CD uptime, then main reason to have WAR OT is because they are really good on adds.

War without IB is flat out worse than Drk or Pld in overall mitigation. Wars kit doesn't compete at all if you take out IB. That would be just like comparing Drks kit without TBN, or pld without shelltron. They are the cornerstone of their mitigation. Ive done this in more than a few posts, but here we go again.

Regarding mitigation:
* Tank Stance: General parity.
* Role skills: equal (obviously). Rampart/conv etc.
* Immunities: 'rough' parity. They are all good in distinct ways with their own pros and cons. This can be a thread unto itself so I will consider them roughly equal as they are all quite different and hard to quantify, but effective at their job. I don't want to side track into a war of immunities.
* 'Always up' CDs. Shelltron/TBN/IB: Again 'rough' parity. They are a little different with some pros/cons but fill the same functional role adequately as a frequent mitigation tool vs all damage types with near zero costs. (war locked behind defiance, but slightly better in a vacuum).
* 'big' CDs. veng/wall/sentinel. rough parity. (drk a smidge behind. 10% or timer. Your choice)
* 'other' CDs: Bullwark vs Raw Int vs Mind. Asymetrically balanced. 2 short CD, high uptime split between Phy and Magic (war/drk) vs a LOONG CD, less reliable (60%) but blocks all damage. I'd consider this 'rough' parity. The individual fights would determine whos is better here, but they are all pretty good in their own way.

Drk Stops here. Leftovers are:
Pld: Passage of arms. Super bulwark. Could be a CD, but I only ever see it actually used as raid mitigation so Ill ignore it for the purposes of personal mitigation.
Pld: Shield. Nuff said.
War: ToB. Fairly week skill for 2 min CD. Never used alone. Always paired with something. This is the 'extra' mitigation war brings over the other tanks and it is a fairly weak one. Its more often used to buff upheaval or 'oh shit' heal. But it is here and counts none the less.

Drk has a slightly weaker 'big' CD (30% vs pld 40% for a whole 10 sec) and no equivalent to ToB. War's trade for this is their best CD (IB) is inaccessible outside of defiance.

Would Drks be happy to lock TBN behind grit but get ToB in exchange? Heck well even throw in Pld 40% instead of 30% sentinel for that 10 seconds every 3 min. If you are trying to stay out of grit, is that a trade you would make? ToB for TBN? Absolutely not. Youd be crazy to give up an 20% HP boost every 15 sec for a 20% HP boost every 2 min. Sure youd be extra tough IN grit, just like war is super tough IN defiance. But dps tanking would take a serious hit.

TLDR: War isn't this bastion of defense its made out to be if you actually play it the way people play tanks in this game.

[Claire_Pendragon]

I've forgotten too much of a10s to remember the stack/spread mechanic. I call it that because thats how you handled it and it was magical in nature.

A11s Optical sight aoe damage (the unavoidable kind not the center mechanic) was magical as well as whirlwinds, and especially double whirlwinds.

I think you're refering to near the end, with the buzz saws, and ppl take magic dmg there.
(not the MT, other than auto attacks. Storms Path was better for that, followed by the possibility of Reprisal, though I tend to use reprisal as a CD, so i hardly used it for raid dmg, except when we struggled on some early on)
Though if thats wrong, Im out of ideas as to what u mean.

For A11S, the dmg that goes evenly to everyone is very minimal, like 10% of their HP minimal. Wasting a CD of GCD on that seems a bit overkill. (Plus isnt a MT thing.)
Whirlwinds, which I did forget about, was definitely something was difficult w/o some raid wide mitigation. I usually was only able to get a single reprisal up for a single whirlwind the whole fight, even with an attempt to bait a parry with dark dance. (since the auto attacks were so few and far between, right before a whirlwind) So it was definitely better to have a WAR for Storms Path on that.

When comparing PLD to DRK as MTs, I still see PLD better for those fights, more so A11S. I do agree hallowed is far worse for solo tanking the shared TB, but most groups had WAR OT, and most groups just had the WAR solo it with holmgang.
By the time you're at the end, and might need to solo it again, not that you need to, DRK and PLD can use their invincibles.

So I think PLD still lined up for having more CDs for more TBs, while having more filler CDs foir autos.

All of the magic dmg was AoE, and therefor, mitigating it for yourself was pointless. (To avoid over healing)

EDIT: forgot delirium, that would help on Whirlwinds.

(Though my stance on PLD still remains, solely from having healed them for it, and my healers saying it was easier when i was PLD for A11S, than DRK, though my DRK was easier for them on A12S, etc, but i will agree the AoE dmg being lowered for less raid wide dmg does make things easier for the group, and not just to heal the MT)