4.1 and us healers

[Ghishlain]

Are we heading back to 3.4 inbalance all over again.. Lets solve one problem and create two more for the entire role.

I feel it's a bit premature to indicate we're heading back to the 3.4 imbalance until we see adjustments on the other healers (assuming there are any).

With that being said, I don't see anything particularly wrong with the current indicated changes. I don't see it affecting the players playing at the skill ceiling too much but will raise the skill floor is how I'm currently assessing these changes.

[IanFrench]

Now succor has the same cure potency and a 0.5s shorter cast time than AST's Aspected Helios!
If SE wants to pair the two spells after they change both aoe shields with same potency, why cannot they make the cast time same??

[Ghishlain]

Now succor has the same cure potency and a 0.5s shorter cast time than AST's Aspected Helios!
If SE wants to pair the two spells after they change both aoe shields with same potency, why cannot they make the cast time same??

Nocturnal Sect gives the AST a 15% bonus potency on their healing spells, thus making Aspected Helios (Nocturnal) still more potent than Succor. It'll probably also cost less MP than Succor too even after the Succor MP changes, I imagine. I find that a fair trade off.

[IanFrench]

Nocturnal Sect gives the AST a 15% bonus potency on their healing spells, thus making Aspected Helios (Nocturnal) still more potent than Succor. It'll probably also cost less MP than Succor too even after the Succor MP changes, I imagine. I find that a fair trade off.

That 15% bonus is just a mere compensation for not having aetherflow or faries.

[Jxnibbles]

It is a bit premature but look at how the role has been changing do you expect people to not be extremely worried?

Also just because it looks like the changes affect the floor doesn't mean it won't have a impact on the ceiling as well..

Really hoping by 5.0 we see some drastic changes to this entire role.

[Ghishlain]

That 15% bonus is just a mere compensation for not having aetherflow or faries.

I'm not in the mood to compare full on kit vs kit ATM so let's ignore sect bonus then and stick to a single spell vs spell comparison.

Succor (currently) costs 2,280 MP. Aspected Helios costs 1,800 MP. This means Succor costs 26% more MP than Aspected Helios to gain an additional 0.5s cast speed. So, some food for thought - if you want your cast time reduction, you might need to get a MP cost increase to compensate.


edit

It is a bit premature but look at how the role has been changing do you expect people to not be extremely worried?

Also just because it looks like the changes affect the floor doesn't mean it won't have a impact on the ceiling as well..

Really hoping by 5.0 we see some drastic changes to this entire role.

I did say that it would affect the skill ceiling too, but just not as much as the skill floor.

And I feel people should be open minded about these changes at the current iteration. Think of the out cry regarding lilies and the like when it was initially announced and how everyone was screaming doom and gloom for WHM on 4.0 release. Yet, despite the counter intuitiveness of the lilies, WHM became quite the powerhouse in 4.0 due to the massive MP kit it gained from the changes it got.

[Jxnibbles]

Lillies are not strong still counter intutiive blaming boss design being heavily scripted based on cds, Literally the only good thing that happened to Whm was Thin Air this whole expansion. We only got so strong because Sch got hit so hard.

We can argue about this all day but I will agree we should wait till the patch hits live. Anyway my biggest worry is the Cross Role system and jobs copy pasting abilities. Really wonder how a 4th Healer could even be implemented.

[IanFrench]

I'm not in the mood to compare full on kit vs kit ATM so let's ignore sect bonus then and stick to a single spell vs spell comparison.

Succor (currently) costs 2,280 MP. Aspected Helios costs 1,800 MP. This means Succor costs 26% more MP than Aspected Helios to gain an additional 0.5s cast speed. So, some food for thought - if you want your cast time reduction, you might need to get a MP cost increase to compensate.


edit


....

I don't understand why you think MP cost matters in this case, scholar has slightly higher mp cost at the moment and SE promise will reduce mp in coming 4.1.
And most important thing is, aetherflow returns MP constantly and faries' healing is FREE and automated.

[Erakir]

Come on Ghish, that WHM thread was exceedingly important as far as development goes.

You know as well as the rest of us that the WHM feedback on lilies and Plenary Indulgence at the 20% numbers we were initially given was a point extremely worthy of discussion regardless of WHM's current standing - And the current approach to lily use as far as Savage goes still further emphasizes that they're really lackluster in general aside from prepping divine benisons, even with 100% proc chances. That outcry with the seeming lack of development time / focus it received plus the current game situation on top of the types of responses we got (And the insistence on the 'pure healer' line that we've heard so much since then) - it's entirely what people should have expected. They then went and reworked PI and proceeded to design savage pretty much around having places to fit in that ability specifically, as the skill was initially about as unreliable as everyone anticipated, even though you could get decent use out of it by, well, hitting more cures again.

WHM's strength in MP economy from spell cost changes and a few other changes + Thin Air doesn't make that thread's underlying issues invalid. The only thing we know is that WHM was not DOA on launch for other reasons - MP economy being a main one plus SCH's relative strength as well, but they should have learned a lot from that whole ordeal. It was pretty important for that rage and backlash to be channeled somewhere Square could see, particularly after how things had become since 3.4. I wasn't even around shortly after Midas till close to when Stormblood came out, but it was clear what the community perception had become - a developer-ignored job with their niche chipped further and further away throughout an entire expansion with nothing to compensate, leaving a very worried playerbase who had already experienced certain jobs having 100% cemented raid slots that had also been told by tons of other players that their concerns for the future were just invalid and WHM's just wanted to be overpowered powerhouses. When Square showcased what they did with WHM, the pot simply boiled over. They royally angered MANY WHMs out there and even if people don't have great solutions or are just ranting in general, the devs need to be aware when such a strong reaction occurs so they can re-evaluate their plans and decide if they want to tweak things. That was NOT a minor, daily forum occurrence, and all the doom and gloom posts should have been taken as, "Dear lord people are extremely upset" by development, which is important information for a company despite what some raiders might say.

And much of it could have been avoided if they had considered being a little more transparent and upfront about some of the changes (which we seem to be getting here, although as a mid-expansion patch there's understandably a lot less to cover). Instead, we got repeated lines about pure healer and "It'll be okay" which is not the PR response to soothe a sudden influx of troubled, concerned, angry players. They fueled their own flames with that instead of containing the fire.

That WHM turned out fine doesn't mean much here specifically because much more changed from what we were shown (including the MP costs of our DPS, if I recall correctly? Might be wrong there). Whether that thread influenced it or not - neither you or I will ultimately know. I'm in the camp that imagines way more thought was given to those tweakings after a 300 page thread suddenly popped up in the forum where our usual traffic involves a recycled healer DPS thread every couple of months that gains a couple of pages a week. Meanwhile, WHM is stuck with what is possibly the worst trait in the game at level 68 if you run the numbers on its proc chance vs cure usage in raids or dungeons + the actual proc itself and what it changes for a WHM (absolutely nothing). It's still pretty much trash if you calculate it with 100% cure spam. We coulda talked about that if we didn't have to spend a month on why the lily design we were initially shown was...not good.

I'm open to seeing changes in practice and this go-around in particular doesn't really bother me at first glance (and as you say there could be other healer changes we simply haven't seen, or maybe not), but when it comes to healer design and balancing approaches over the past two years or so, the last thing I've personally gotten from the team is a trusty sense of confidence.

[era1Ne]

Lillies are not strong still counter intutiive blaming boss design being heavily scripted based on cds, Literally the only good thing that happened to Whm was Thin Air this whole expansion. We only got so strong because Sch got hit so hard.

Well, scholar was op in heavensward and needed to be adjusted. At the moment the balance of the healers is good enough and only small tweaks are needed imo. The jobs themselves need some QoL changes tho. For example the fairy of the scholar should be more responsive.

Also just because it looks like the changes affect the floor doesn't mean it won't have a impact on the ceiling as well..

The ceiling trys to use adlo and succor or any cast for that matter as less as possible, which means changes to those casts will not affect the ceiling much.