4.1 and us healers

**Dregenfox** · 10-02-2017 07:51 AM

The reason SCH are beating the DPS of WHM is because their GCD heals were horrible compared to WHM. As such groups are allocating the brunt of GCD healing on the WHM, while SCH just gives out whatever the fairy does and a few oGCD heals off AF.

This is why I'm advocating for buffs to SCH. If scholar becomes equal in healing to WHM in terms of GCD then there's a case to bring SCH/WHM duos and let the SCH handle the brunt of GCD-healing.

I think with some small buffs to WHM dps they have the potential to make up for astro buffs while still offering strong burst healing/GCD backup.

Also there have been countless topics on SCH's adlo and succor being too high. While I agree SCH healing is in a good spot right now it remains a fact that most players cannot handle an oGCD-only playstyle, so the fact that SCH healing can nearly match WHM with optimal play doesn't really matter. We also have to factor in the fact that fairy's embrace becomes fairly useless in o4s, which is a huge portion of SCH's healing.

Right now SCH's are in a situation where even if we wanted to main heal, it doesn't make sense, because hardcasting anything on a SCH is a massive waste of MP.

Either rework SCH by making them a pure pet/oGCD healer or give them the ability to hardcast heals. It makes no sense to keep both because DPS and hardcasted heals are mutually exclusive.

**IllyaPrisma** · 10-02-2017 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by Dregenfox

The reason SCH are beating the DPS of WHM is because their GCD heals were horrible compared to WHM.

This is incorrect. SCH has more oGCD heals than WHM on much shorter cooldowns, Fey Union, and fairy cooldowns along as well. You are also not considering the opportunity cost between WHM and SCH GCD usage. SCH will always be able to use more GCD for DPSing in any given scenario, and a reduction to the MP cost of Adlo/Succor will not change that play style. SCH is less effective at J-Wave style healing for a reason, so giving them potency buffs and more usage out of their GCD without nerfing how powerful their oGCD is would definitely be too much. SCH is fine right now and these upcoming changes in 4.1 are only meant to slightly raise the skill floor.

**Dregenfox** · 10-02-2017 09:19 AM

Not taking lilies into account, WHM has ~2200 potency worth of heals/shields every 60s. ~1150 of that oGCD pot is AOE healing.

SCH has ~1800 potency worth of healing every 45s. They can opt to reduce that to 1600 pot/45s via 2x indom to convert 1000 of that pot into AOE healing.

That means WHM, just using up 2 lilies/min gets nearly the same oGCD healing as SCH, but gets potentially much more AOE healing off asylum/assize/indulgence.

This doesn't even take into account the synergy of Benediction with war/drk, which can pretty much let you handle any mechanic with just 1 oGCD.

The other thing is that WHM has higher efficiency in all their offensive GCD compared to SCH. Aero II has superior DPS to bio II (the shorter duration is actually an advantage because you want to get off 350 pot hardcasts as often as possible over the 250 pot nuke). WHM also has a 20 pot advantage on their hardcasted nuke.

If they make Adlo/Succor equal to WHM it just becomes plain better for WHM to nuke as much as possible when given the chance due to their superior DPS. The only reason the WHM heals atm in a WHM/SCH duo is because Adlo/Succor is so ridiculously bad atm in its current state.

**Ghishlain** · 10-02-2017 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by era1Ne

As i recall they overbuffed ast for 3.4 on purpose with the reason that he was technically fine with 3.3, but most of the people didn't want to use the class, since he was not as good before. An practice often used in games. Could be wrong, tho. Was a long time ago.

They did, in an attempt to remove the stigma attached to AST since it's inception at HW's launch. For me AST was more than serviceable with the 3.07 though S-E continued to buff AST more and more and more until it became the powerhouse that it is now - all in order to get people to play a job with a negative stigma attached. AST being as powerful as was in 3.4 was part of the reason why WHM became excluded. The things they did with AST is part of the reason why I'm so cautious about any changes to the healer role.

Originally Posted by Erakir

-snip-

I am in agreement with this assessment. SCH's ability to weave and move is so much higher than WHM that it allows SCH to play at their theoretical maximum much easier than WHM. And like you I don't think WHM needs much more - just potency adjustments if S-E chooses to go that route. Make these adjustments similar in vein to BLM where they're given huge potential ceiling but affected the most by dealing with mechanics.

With that being said, when you look on the site that shall not be named, there is a fair share of WHMs in the top 100 chart of each boss (I'd estimate a 35/65 split outside of Neo Exdeath). This is a rather substantial change from how SCH basically dominated the top 100 list for A8S and A12S.

Originally Posted by Dregenfox

-snip-

The main problem WHM ran into in 3.4 is that anything a WHM could do, an AST could do it better while providing immense DPS increases via the power of Balance.

If we implement what you're suggesting, you'd basically be doing the same thing to WHM in 4.X - why even bother to bring WHM when a SCH can do it better than WHM.

I understand the logic but I disagree because it doesn't consider the fact that SCH + AST would then be better than every other composition (again) on both progression and speed killing. At least with how it's balanced now, there is choices players can make towards specific play styles with certain combinations work more optimally depending on which stage of progression a team is on.

**Dregenfox** · 10-02-2017 09:49 AM

No...I just laid out how WHM can have superior oGCD healing to SCH as well as superior offensive GCD's over SCH. You can already see an example of this in Neo Exdeath, where the fairy's embrace becomes fairly useless in terms of covering the needed healing - WHM edges out SCH for damage and is vastly superior in healing for Neo.

All they really need to do is buff SCH's adlo/Succor a bit and WHM's offensive damage by a little, and leave Astro the same. This gives SCH the option to handle the brunt of GCD healing by themselves, while also giving WHM's a stronger offensive role while still being able to being top-tier GCD healing when needed.

They've already given a role to WHM - they choose to either do the best DPS of all healers or the best HPS of all healers, but they can't do both effectively. The issue is that their hardcasted heals are so good right now that it's more efficient to just make the AST/SCH go pure DPS and have the WHM handle all of the healing.

**Kabzy** · 10-02-2017 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by Dregenfox

The issue is that their hardcasted heals are so good right now that it's more efficient to just make the AST/SCH go pure DPS and have the WHM handle all of the healing.

I'm just going to address this part to show you why you are wrong. You mention healing through Neo Exdeath, so lets talk about Almagest. Theoretically, yes a WHM could sit there and spam Medica or Cure III, because they are powerful tools that they have which work, but that is far from being efficient as you are implying. As a SCH, I will deploy a shield beforehand and use both Fey Covenant and Rouse + Whispering Dawn (both oGCD). My cohealer can use their regen as well as Asylum (or CU if AST). The regen power, as well as mitigation from other party members (Addle, Reprisal etc), essentially means that you may not have to cast a single GCD heal during the Almagest ticks, allowing both healers to DPS freely.

The kits of the healers usually compliment each other. In the situation above, if party members still get dangerously low it makes a lot more sense for me to throw out an Indom, that I can weave in with Miasma II + ED, than it does a WHM to stop DPSing to hardcast a heal.

Before 4.0, the SCH Faerie was stronger and the majority of our damage came from DoT application, which allowed us to have more freedom to stance dance for DPS. So maybe back then it was more acceptable to have an "off-healer" role. Now there is no barrier to DPS, and every healer has CDs for different situations. To be truly efficient you will coordinate them with your co-healer to allow both of you to contribute as much DPS as possible. The notation of main and off healers simply should not exist anymore.

**Jxnibbles** · 10-02-2017 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Dregenfox

Snip.

You asked for a equal to cure III.. You are now asking to buff Adlo and Succor. At the cost of Whms only having a single niche (DPS) at that point.. Do you really think they are going to let you keep your shields, Chain, or Fairy and be equal to us in potency? The Healer role is already suffering an idenitiy crisis and you want to make it worse by having Sch be on par with Whms Heal potency.

**Dregenfox** · 10-02-2017 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Kabzy

I'm just going to address this part to show you why you are wrong. You mention healing through Neo Exdeath, so lets talk about Almagest. Theoretically, yes a WHM could sit there and spam Medica or Cure III, because they are powerful tools that they have which work, but that is far from being efficient as you are implying. As a SCH, I will deploy a shield beforehand and use both Fey Covenant and Rouse + Whispering Dawn (both oGCD). My cohealer can use their regen as well as Asylum (or CU if AST). The regen power, as well as mitigation from other party members (Addle, Reprisal etc), essentially means that you may not have to cast a single GCD heal during the Almagest ticks, allowing both healers to DPS freely.

The kits of the healers usually compliment each other. In the situation above, if party members still get dangerously low it makes a lot more sense for me to throw out an Indom, that I can weave in with Miasma II + ED, than it does a WHM to stop DPSing to hardcast a heal.

No where in my post did I say SCH weren't allowed to use oGCD's to complement healing. In your scenario the shield + regen automatically requires 2 GCD's. The goal of both healer duos is to minimize the use of GCD's, which means optimally a SCH should never cast succor when a WHM can use Medica II or Cure III.

Cure III/Medica II when used right has nearly the same efficiency as Succor + ET + Succor, and when combined with SCH's oGCD indom negates the need for SCH to even use any GCD's at all.

Given a certain potency required for a healing check, it's always more efficient for the WHM to cover any additional healing with their GCD's over the SCH when oGCD options have been exhausted. If the scenario doesn't call for any hardcasted GCD's then the point is moot anyway.

I think you guys are underestimating how good AST can be right now. I don't care how WHM/SCH get buffed, but imo the best way to go about it is to give SCH the GCD healing they've been clamoring for while increasing the DPS ability of WHM so that they both bring value to the party.

Obviously they could go the other way by boosting WHM healing even more while buffing SCH DPS but that would still force WHM's out because parties want more efficient DPS, not more efficient healing, after a certain point past progression.

Parties aren't bringing SCH because they're good...AST is the current auto-include. They bring SCH because SCH DPS + utility gives faster clears than WHM's pure DPS...there are some SCH's who go through an entire clear without casting a single GCD.

**Kabzy** · 10-02-2017 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by Dregenfox

In your scenario the shield + regen automatically requires 2 GCD's. The goal of both healer duos is to minimize the use of GCD's

Well with Almagest it is often shielded because the initial hit alongside an instant damage tick can cause death when you're still not BiS geared. And I think most would still agree that each healer using 1 GCD each is better than forcing a WHM or AST to use 2-3 solo. Their DoT will still do more damage than my Broil 2, so again in that scenario you would be selfish to put the entire burden of it on one healer.

Not to mention that a spread Adlo is one GCD that is certainly not weak by any means.

As for the rest of the post, it seems like you're contradicting yourself. You acknowledge that the healer kits do synergise well together. SCH has great oGCDs that work well with a WHM/ASTs GCDs. So why then would you even feel the need to add what WHM/AST do well to SCH? By that theory you should give WHM chain, give them passive healing, give them 3 Tetras per min. It just makes zero sense to give one job everything.

Also since the balance nerf, AST is not an auto-include. No matter how much we may want tweaks to the three jobs, there's no denying that they are the most balanced they have been since ASTs introduction.

**Riyshn** · 10-02-2017 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Dregenfox

I think you guys are underestimating how good AST can be right now. I don't care how WHM/SCH get buffed, but imo the best way to go about it is to give SCH the GCD healing they've been clamoring for while increasing the DPS ability of WHM so that they both bring value to the party.

So... who is the "they" you're referring to? More GCD heals might well be the one thing I haven't seen SCH demand for. SCH healing strength is in the oGCDs, which we already have both the strongest and the most of; we don't need GCD healing as well.

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