Boss Autoattack Damage and FFXIV's Tanking Meta

[Sarcatica]

Another option is to put a mitigation penalty in DPS stance. Dps stance is low cost, high reward.
Make it high cost, high reward and we may have much more incentive to go tank stance (like old cleric stance).

It could be in the form of reduced healing received and/or reduced enmity generation. I don't think it's good to be able to comfortably tank with 100% dps stance uptime because there's no meaningful decision behind it.
I'd find it much more interesting to have to carefully plan our stance dancing rather than dps stance all the way.

It doesn't really matter in the end for the top players, they are always looking to abuse the OPs like how they have abused Shirks. It's all balanced to make sure that everyone can get into tanking, while it provides better gameplay for the top players whenever they can afford it. It really hasn't changed at all since ARR where tanks were already trying to maximize dps via less tank stance uptime, more STR pieces, crafted VIT/STR, etc. The decision is sound that even the casuals can find enjoyment in tanking.

[Felorr]

It doesn't really matter in the end for the top players, they are always looking to abuse the OPs like how they have abused Shirks. It's all balanced to make sure that everyone can get into tanking, while it provides better gameplay for the top players whenever they can afford it. It really hasn't changed at all since ARR where tanks were already trying to maximize dps via less tank stance uptime, more STR pieces, crafted VIT/STR, etc. The decision is sound that even the casuals can find enjoyment in tanking.

This is so similar to a reply i posted in the "whats the point of tank stance" thread, ill post my tldr below:

Tank stance makes up the difference in skill to allow all players to clear content. I view tank stance as a crutch. Not that it's a bad thing. Yoshi-P wants the jobs to have both a low skill floor and high skill ceiling. Tanks do this by using tank stance more at lower skill levels, and not at all at higher skill levels.

[shao32]

snip

i really think in that option too like, you get more damage on dps stance but in the end it will be 2 ways of tanking and all the pro teams will take the most dps eficient having ppl like xeno claming stupid things like if a healer can't keep you in dps stance you have to find a new one, and disparaging the ones play the other way.

as a performance and a social solution its just removing the damage penalty or removing the tank stances complety or whatever but just eliminate have 2 ways of tanking, bcs no matter how some "PRO" tanks claim to increse they ego, tanking on dps stance just add more preasure on you team mates to increse you personal dps, its works? yes, its bcs you own skill? no.

[Hruodig]

i really think in that option too like, you get more damage on dps stance but in the end it will be 2 ways of tanking and all the pro teams will take the most dps eficient having ppl like xeno claming stupid things like if a healer can't keep you in dps stance you have to find a new one, and disparaging the ones play the other way.

as a performance and a social solution its just removing the damage penalty or removing the tank stances complety or whatever but just eliminate have 2 ways of tanking, bcs no matter how some "PRO" tanks claim to increse they ego, tanking on dps stance just add more preasure on you team mates to increse you personal dps, its works? yes, its bcs you own skill? no.

this is blatantly untrue and just shows that you have no idea how this game is played at a high level. Everyone in the party relies on each other to increase raid dps. Tanks rely on healers for smart gcd usage and dpses for enmity management, while healers depend on tanks for smart cooldown usage, and dps rely on tanks for smart positioning to help maintain uptime. It's a team effort.

Also if a healer can't keep you up in dps stance, it's either cause they're bad, you're not using cooldowns efficiently, or mechanics aren't being done correctly.

[Ryugami]

Jesus Christ, there is no such thing as Meta in this game. The Meta is being good at your selected job, and nothing else. As long as you are good at your job, it shouldn't matter what you do as long as it works

[Hruodig]

Jesus Christ, there is no such thing as Meta in this game. The Meta is being good at your selected job, and nothing else. As long as you are good at your job, it shouldn't matter what you do as long as it works

If you're trying to be competitive with speed runs, there absolutely is a meta.

[Shinkyo]

It doesn't really matter in the end for the top players, they are always looking to abuse the OPs like how they have abused Shirks.

it all depends on the penalty we get.
If we had let's say 20% healing reduced or 20% less HP, I'm pretty sure the negative impact to healer DPS would make a case for Tank to have more tank stance uptime to maximize raid DPS.

[MauvaisOeil]

it all depends on the penalty we get.
If we had let's say 20% healing reduced or 20% less HP, I'm pretty sure the negative impact to healer DPS would make a case for Tank to have more tank stance uptime to maximize raid DPS.

Accordingly, damage could be just higher tuned and tank stance less punishing in damage done than taken to make it more fitting.

[shao32]

snip

please i follow the meta and know how its works, i know what cd i need to use in every moment, if not i was unable to be in neo exdeath, at contrary to tank in tank stance, tanking in dps mode, make you more weak and you depend complety of how the dps manage diversion to hold you agro without using you emity combo something that dont happen in tank stance, tank stance dont change our dps rotations and cd management i will still need to use awaranes+TBN+rampath to survive critical hit poroperly on os3.

but apart of being a tactic to make everybody life more harder compared to stay on it, is something from my part is against of any tank desing, its how one tank take more advantage of this against the others ergo WAR and how they tank-dps stances are desing compared to PLD and DRK, withs im ok WAR being a stance dance tank, but idk why as a DRK with my huge cost and gcd grit i have to dealt with it too bcs the meta, thats looking at it on a stance dance meta, now we are just dont using our tank stances at all for tanking, whats the point to have a skill how become useless on high level raids? for dungeons only? why dont make tank stance just a 30 seconds emity buff+20% mitigation and move forward? why i have to sacrifice my defense to play my job at maximun power? none of the other roles have to do that (healers yes until stormblood).

i say that bcs i already saw some ppl claiming "the jobs will be more boring" and "but more tanks are going to be like me in dps" with i fin hilarious bcs tank stances dont make any tank more boring in terms of rotation and cd management, tank stances are just a dirty damage penalty with low benefic how can be avoid and thats the problem, even with that small benefic make everyone life better.

ergo if yoshi and the dev team want this kind of tactics, then i want cost 0 for DRK and PLD and ofgc both of it, we are tanking on dps stance all the time right? so will never be a problem, idk why i have to pay more for the same..... no wait even less that other tanks.

[Hruodig]

please i follow the meta and know how its works, i know what cd i need to use in every moment, if not i was unable to be in neo exdeath, at contrary to tank in tank stance, tanking in dps mode, make you more weak and you depend complety of how the dps manage diversion to hold you agro without using you emity combo something that dont happen in tank stance, tank stance dont change our dps rotations and cd management i will still need to use awaranes+TBN+rampath to survive critical hit poroperly on os3.

but apart of being a tactic to make everybody life more harder compared to stay on it, is something from my part is against of any tank desing, its how one tank take more advantage of this against the others ergo WAR and how they tank-dps stances are desing compared to PLD and DRK, withs im ok WAR being a stance dance tank, but idk why as a DRK with my huge cost and gcd grit i have to dealt with it too bcs the meta, thats looking at it on a stance dance meta, now we are just dont using our tank stances at all for tanking, whats the point to have a skill how become useless on high level raids? for dungeons only? why dont make tank stance just a 30 seconds emity buff+20% mitigation and move forward? why i have to sacrifice my defense to play my job at maximun power? none of the other roles have to do that (healers yes until stormblood).

i say that bcs i already saw some ppl claiming "the jobs will be more boring" and "but more tanks are going to be like me in dps" with i fin hilarious bcs tank stances dont make any tank more boring in terms of rotation and cd management, tank stances are just a dirty damage penalty with low benefic how can be avoid and thats the problem, even with that small benefic make everyone life better.

ergo if yoshi and the dev team want this kind of tactics, then i want cost 0 for DRK and PLD and ofgc both of it, we are tanking on dps stance all the time right? so will never be a problem, idk why i have to pay more for the same..... no wait even less that other tanks.

I don't exactly know where to start with all this. The whole point of the dps tank meta is that having both tanks in full dps stance is a giant raid dps increase, at the cost of a minor dps decrease for healers. In addition, dps can help with enmity because all it takes is to press a cd, which doesn't result in a dps loss at all, while if you have to use an aggro combo at all as a tank, it's a dps loss. As for war vs pld/drk, this is why you have the war pull, while the pld/drk stay in dps stance the entire fight, thus resulting in no need to actually go into tank stance outside the pull for either tank.

In regards to the relevance of tank stance, it's always been a crutch, and I don't exactly mean that in a bad way. It's a tool for less experienced tank players to use to get through an encounter, and they can take it off once they feel more familiar with the fight. It's so that less skill/experienced players can get through all casual content with ease while still doing their job, and it still leaves room for better/more experienced players to take slightly more risk for bigger reward. I personally don't really see a big problem with it, but I understand that's a point of contention.

Ultimately, as long as the goal of each encounter is "reduce the boss's hp to 0", higher raid dps will always be the goal, and tanks will always be finding ways to not be in tank stance. It's always been like this.

I do personally regard tanking as the easiest role to play at a high level, but that doesn't mean that no one's relying on you for anything. There's lots of things tanks can do positioning wise and cooldown wise to help support your party, and ultimately increase raid dps.

PS: You don't need to be in tank stance for a lot of neo, especially since there's no auto attacks. It's pretty much just for aggro resets, and even then if you have a nin then it's not a huge deal.