Boss Autoattack Damage and FFXIV's Tanking Meta

[Kerrath]

You didn't read my post.

yes i did.

you know what I like about tanking in ff14? i like threat management. i like how threat is something to be managed. in other mmos, you can press any button at any time with no thought to management of threat at all and still hold aggro. it's trivial. in ff14, you are rewarded with more dps for dropping your threat-increasing stance. you have to use things like shirk and dps aggro drops. that's fun. maybe i'd like your idea if tank stance gave a 20% increase to threat generated rather than a 500% increase to threat generated.

[Astral145]

I could care less about the so called tank meta. I rarely ever leave tank stance unless there are times when the boss is not attacking me for 10 secs or more. Why should I leave tank stance when the bosses auto attacks are hitting for a retarded amount of damage. Cool downs are reserved for boss mechanics or during large mob pulls.

If the Dev team wants to continue to put in dps checks then they need to put in game damage parsers for all players or remove the heavy hitting auto attacks. I refuse to put unnecessary stress on healers when stance dancing. The dev teams need to make up their minds... Just look at how they treat vit vs. str accessories... I love tanking but I refuse to fall in line with the current bs tank meta when the dev team can't give us in game parsers or make up their minds on accessories.

[Hruodig]

I could care less about the so called tank meta. I rarely ever leave tank stance unless there are times when the boss is not attacking me for 10 secs or more. Why should I leave tank stance when the bosses auto attacks are hitting for a retarded amount of damage. Cool downs are reserved for boss mechanics or during large mob pulls.

If the Dev team wants to continue to put in dps checks then they need to put in game damage parsers for all players or remove the heavy hitting auto attacks. I refuse to put unnecessary stress on healers when stance dancing. The dev teams need to make up their minds... Just look at how they treat vit vs. str accessories... I love tanking but I refuse to fall in line with the current bs tank meta when the dev team can't give us in game parsers or make up their minds on accessories.

If you're tanking dungeons, you can easily go into dps stance for bosses. They do very minimal damage with their autoattacks, and any cleaves they do are pretty easy to remember and mitigate for. Your healer isn't being unnecessarily stressed by this at all.

In savage, it more depends on the skill of your party. If your healers make bad decisions with their gcds or people are messing up mechanics/dying a lot, you might feel forced into tank stance. But If not, you can easily tank every savage fight in dps stance with smart usage of cds, and your healers will be just fine. It's not that hard.

[Kerrath]

I could care less about the so called tank meta. I rarely ever leave tank stance unless there are times when the boss is not attacking me for 10 secs or more. Why should I leave tank stance when the bosses auto attacks are hitting for a retarded amount of damage. Cool downs are reserved for boss mechanics or during large mob pulls.

honestly, auto attacks DON'T hit hard, though. as it is, both me and my co-tank really only use tank stance to generate threat at the pull (which we shouldn't, i'm aware, but whatever) and as it is our healers never actually directly cast heals on us in raids, unless a tankbuster has recently occurred..

[bswpayton]

honestly, auto attacks DON'T hit hard, though. as it is, both me and my co-tank re

I try my best to tank in dps stance but it's hard pulling it off all fight. I just recently pugged susano ex for the first time in a while and his autos def do a ton of damage. In thus pug I changed to sword and of course I die to his autos despite mitigating the damage. I think people that always run in performed groups forget that in pugs if u mess up experimenting. It will end in a disband and lots of frustration. Se really designs things horribly.

[Connor]

While I don't play a tank very often, from what I've seen the developers seem hell-bent on diminishing what it is that makes a 'tank' a 'tank' Having to stay out of tank Stance whenever it's possible, frequent and powerful enmity buffs to all additional enmity abilities, having little options to actively defend the party with outside of Paladin's long-cooldown / gauge-linked abilities, being preoccupied with dealing damage rather than taking it.
Even when gearing up as a tank, you do so with maximising your DPS in mind, not with reducing the amount of damage you take, increasing your HP or enmity generation, or really anything that isn't damage output related. You take whichever gives the biggest DPS boost at the highest item level available or you're a bad tank. You don't even have many real options in terms of gearing. You either take the gear that increases your DPS or take nothing. Is a tank really a tank if all they do is focus on DPS but with higher HP than the rest of the party, and perhaps use defensive cooldowns in the same order at the same time for the same attack every single fight for the entirety of the game? The answer FFXIV gives is a resounding yes, but personally I strongly disagree

I had always assumed a 'tanks' focus was protecting their party members, utilising their abilities to increase their defences in creative and interesting ways and providing support through things like lowering enemy strength, crowd control, making good use of abilities with stopping power. Pressing a single button to literally make yourself invincible so you don't have to make any defence-related decisions isn't a very interesting or engaging way to have tanks deal with incoming toward them or their party members, but that's just me

[Astral145]

If you're tanking dungeons, you can easily go into dps stance for bosses. They do very minimal damage with their autoattacks, and any cleaves they do are pretty easy to remember and mitigate for. Your healer isn't being unnecessarily stressed by this at all.

In savage, it more depends on the skill of your party. If your healers make bad decisions with their gcds or people are messing up mechanics/dying a lot, you might feel forced into tank stance. But If not, you can easily tank every savage fight in dps stance with smart usage of cds, and your healers will be just fine. It's not that hard.

In DF I cant even count how many times my HP dropped below 30% while in tank stance due to auto attacks and if I wasn't in tank stance I would have died or I would be self healing way to often which would leave me vulnerable (low mp) during mechanics. In all honesty stance dancing should be reserved for tank swapping. It shouldn't be used for dps checks and all this other rubbish players are trying to do. Its annoying and nobody should be forced to stance dance unless its used for a specific purpose like tank swapping.

As I said before the dev team needs to create in-game parsers for all players that way dps can get better and actually beat dps checks. Tanks sole purpose in life is to be a meat shield and making sure the boss is positioned correctly during heavy mechanics and during phase changes. Outside of that is purely optional and should not be forced on anyone. If your team is not meeting dps checks then you need to look at your damage dealers to practice more or meld more materia to their gear.

If you still cant meet dps checks then the devs need to give us parsers and rework tanks damage so its inline with the current meta.

[Freyyy]

yes i did.

you know what I like about tanking in ff14? i like threat management. i like how threat is something to be managed. in other mmos, you can press any button at any time with no thought to management of threat at all and still hold aggro. it's trivial. in ff14, you are rewarded with more dps for dropping your threat-increasing stance. you have to use things like shirk and dps aggro drops. that's fun. maybe i'd like your idea if tank stance gave a 20% increase to threat generated rather than a 500% increase to threat generated.

This answer just proves that you either didn't read my post, or didn't understand the idea behind it.

[Kerrath]

your two suggestions were:
1) delete defensive cooldowns so that we're forced to stance dance for tankbusters. of the two suggestions, it is the superior option. however, we could also just make it so that there are more tankbusters in a fight than cooldowns to mitigate them so that we'd be forced to use tank stance as a mitigation tool for some of them, or make tankbusters hit hard enough that cooldowns alone arent enough. i could live with my alteration to your suggestion and enjoy it.
2) delete tank stance and rename dps stance to tank stance and add a weaker threat modifier on top of a damage taken reduction to it. this suggestion is terrible because in reality low-skill and low-gear tanks use tank stance a lot to compensate. it also gives up on the idea of ever having stance dancing again, which is an incredibly satisfying mechanic for tanks.

[shao32]

it also gives up on the idea of ever having stance dancing again, which is an incredibly satisfying mechanic for tanks.

for you who are a warrior and you stances are desing to do that yes, for a DRK is a pain in the ass stance dancing, and for paladins the same, i always love tanks roles bcs all the support and leadership they offer, the feeling im making everyone life easy is more satisfying for me that the most big number you can archive with a fell cleave or whatever and the actual meta is killing that for me bcs im forcing 7 members to work more harder for my personal dps.

for the second point frey dont really say delete tank stance, just remove the damage penalty thats all (and yes ogfc but i think with only damage penalty and mp cost with be enough), in case of WAR you can remove damage penalty and time recast penalty and you will still have tank how tank stance to dealt they job, every one wins, PLD and DRK will no longer get in to the need to imitate WAR with her clunky tank stances to archive the maximun dps with i think is the only real solution to fix the tank stance problem.

the only job with more problems will be paladin bcs we cant do anything with sword oath and i dont think SE want to delete it, probably make it able to use it with shield but thats how is DRK so idk.