Sustain

[Officer_Cat]

honestly, i dont loose my Egi that often, but it gets low a lot. a real simple solution to the problem is to give a small percentage regen to the Egi while in Combat, even a 1% hp per 5 seconds would offset the really shitty heal we have. right now you heal 6x more with a cure potency 200 spell (erase) then with a 400 potency physick which is insulting, not to mention i was outhealed by a level 56 RDM casting 1 veracure in level 50 white gear and i am ilevel 314 on my SMN

Cause SMN is not built to support like the RDM he is built for Damage with a little kit of support like devotion or if you use Garuda the 15 % Magic Damage resistance reduction.

[MoldyOne]

Cause SMN is not built to support like the RDM he is built for Damage with a little kit of support like devotion or if you use Garuda the 15 % Magic Damage resistance reduction.

actually, both RDM and SMN are Support classes, they are designed to play dps, and off heals, which means they should be comparable to EACH OTHER. when you have a class that is a face roll (sorry, but RDM can be very face roll for decent DPS) that outclasses another easily in terms of ease, you have a problem. do we need Sustain back, no, not at all. do we need some balance fixes, very much so. one of the biggest changes would be a decent heal. at Ilevel 314 on SMN my physick does 634 with a 400 potency heal, my RDM Veracure does 6411 With a 350 potency heal. on RDM Erase does 3676 with a 200 potency Erase and SMN does about the same. i think many of these bring Sustain back threads would vanish if SMN had a heal that didnt feel like its a bandaid on a Gushing wound

[Zfz]

actually, both RDM and SMN are Support classes, they are designed to play dps, and off heals, which means they should be comparable to EACH OTHER.

Not anymore. It used to be like this, but with 4.0 and RDM, they have changed the positioning of SMN, and that's why they consciously make Physick scale off MND only. It is clear from the Letter Live that now, at this time, in this version of the game, SMN is not supposed to be able to heal as good as the RDM.

Forget about Physick. It was nerfed deliberately. So was Sustain.

What SMN really needs in terms of pet survivability is what it should have had ever since the beginning: executing the master's commands immediately, interrupting everything the pet is doing. If I tell my pet to move, it moves immediately. This responsiveness is needed to really get the pet out of many of the shorter AOEs for which even the player needs to move immediately. Since Heel doesn't always work to avoid those AOEs (player gets out of the telegraph but the pet is just one body length behind) making the pet a lot more responsive is a necessity.

[HyoMinPark]

Cause SMN is not built to support like the RDM he is built for Damage with a little kit of support like devotion or if you use Garuda the 15 % Magic Damage resistance reduction.

SMN’s support abilities come from ACN, which branches off into SMN and SCH. Even before SB, SMN was still considered a support DPS for a couple reasons, the main one being that they have an in-combat Raise. Really, and truly, all DPS in this game (save for SAM) have support-type aspects to them, some just more so than others. SMN actually has more support built into it than RDM: not only does Garuda buff magical damage dealers, but Ifrit buffs physical damage dealers. Compare to RDM, whose Embolden buffs physical DPS, but does not buff any other magical DPS except the RDM that executes it. RDM and SMN both have in-combat raises, both can provide mana to healers via Mana Shift, both provide party buffs—RDM actually less so than SMN because they cannot buff other magical DPS where as SMN can buff both magical and physical DPS. They’re both support-type DPS jobs. The only thing RDM can do better is they have more potent heals when you compare Vercure to Phsyick, and the job is less punishing when you die (from what I gather, deaths on SMN are the absolute worst and one of the most punishing among the DPS).

Damage-wise, I think SMNs and RDMs are pretty close to one another. I would have to look at logs to see, but SMNs may be pulling a bit ahead, even though there is a far smaller pool of SMN logs compared to RDM logs.

I can understand the desire for both SMNs and SCHs to want Sustain back. I don’t play SMN, but I do play SCH, and I wish I still had Sustain, so I can give my fairy a regen and she spend less time trying to heal herself through damage, and spend more time focusing on the tank/MT.

[Officer_Cat]

If i compare SMN and RDM the SMN have WAY less support then the RDM, if i compare RDM and SMN on FFlogs on Exdeath then the SMN pulls 200 more DPS.

I-i mean 5% more damage for 15 second vs 10% more damage for physical damage that reduces itself for 20% every 4 seconds but is also buffing his own magic damage.

Insta Verraise you just need dualcast again vs 7.5 seconds skill, if you have luck your swiftcast is up.

Insta heals possible for 9k ~ (i guess) vs a 621 Physik... that has a cast time

Sorry i dont see any reason to say that the Summoner is on the same support level as the Redmage or is able to support in healing xD

Also i think its the same with SCH control your pet

[Phoenicia]

The way you're comparing Embolden and Radiant Shield is incorrect. Embolden is a 2 min 10% for 4 seconds, then drops by 2% every 4 from there lasting 20s. Radiant Shield is up for 24s every 1 minute. More uptime. Still weaker, but radiant shield has reflects which are directly attributed to the SMN. They both come out at roughly 1% gain per party member if used on CD.

Contagion is the strongest raid buff in 10% for 15s but is magical only. Since magic is a smaller part of most raid groups that's fine. But it's an option.

Verraise is too strong when compared to anything else. But heck, my healers raise by default and only ask me to raise when they can't so whither I can throw 1 or 4 raises in a row is irrelevant because they're all DPS losses I don't want.

Vercure at ilv340 is ~7500. Yes you can dual cast it. But if your caster has to be "healing" replace your actual healers. Not a point to drop SMN for. I do not understand this whole "healing support" that people are arguing over on a DPS job. Anything that takes a GCD and doesn't deal damage on a "damage dealer" job is something I do not want. I mean 2 of 3 tank jobs are already crying about their tank stances being a damage-less GCD and it's a part of their job description, you know, "tank" stance.

Over any percentile above 75 on most fights, SMN is top 4 or 3 DPS except hundredth where MCH beats it in some fights (due to speed run meta comps). RDM regardless of percentile is always last.

[HyoMinPark]

Sorry i dont see any reason to say that the Summoner is on the same support level as the Redmage or is able to support in healing xD

I wasn't even arguing that SMN needed adjusting in terms of their healing, or needs to contribute to healing when the healers are lacking, nor do I agree with that playstyle for RDM. I will fill in to heal if a heals goes down long enough for them to get back up, but I will not do a lazy healer's job for them.

I was saying that SMN has slightly more support aspects than RDM, and always has. To say that SMN isn't on par with RDM in terms of support is an incorrect statement, and leads me to believe that you do not know your job as well as you claim you do.

Also i think its the same with SCH control your pet

No amount of pet control can stop them from getting hit by unavoidable damage. Interrupting and manually casting each Embrace would be the only way to force your fairy to prioritize healing a tank or someone else over her, because the AI automatically prioritizes her health over everyone else's. In that instance, you spend so much time micromanaging it's easy to miss out on DPS, which SCH still carries quite a bit of personal DPS.

Giving us back Sustain would give SCHs a nice little buffer to heal their fairy so that she can spend less time healing herself and more time healing the party. I micromanage my fairies and I still want Sustain back.

[MoldyOne]

Insta heals possible for 9k ~ (i guess) vs a 621 Physik... that has a cast time

That Quote explains the whole need for a Change to Summoner healing right there. there are examples where a Healer or instance gets screwed due to something going off. a acceptable heal is essential for parties that have to recover from stupidity and a SMN is designed to help with that recovery but has only a basic raise right now that is useful. DPS on SMN is fine as long as you dont die or screw it up to bad.

[Officer_Cat]

No amount of pet control can stop them from getting hit by unavoidable damage.

What is unavoidable that hits the pet sooo hard that it needs to get a heal ?!
Just as an example If Queens Waltz is hitting the whole group u need to heal anyone with an aoe heal or whatever something like this, then your pet get heals too.

I really would like to know where your pet dies or where your pet needs your attention to heal him.

[Mavrias]

What is unavoidable that hits the pet sooo hard that it needs to get a heal ?!
Just as an example If Queens Waltz is hitting the whole group u need to heal anyone with an aoe heal or whatever something like this, then your pet get heals too.

I really would like to know where your pet dies or where your pet needs your attention to heal him.

V3S, V4S, Susano EX, any fight with a Chimera. Also, soloing fates with Titan-egi, Palace of the Dead solo, Veteran Clan B-Rank Hunts, ARR S and A ranks, HW A-Ranks.

I really would like to know why you're so against SMN's getting Sustain back or some other sort of pet heal, I'd personally prefer on oGCD.