Why do tanks no use coold downs?

[kikix12]

I have actually been playing healer in this game's endgame content since forever, maining it from 2012 until early Stormblood (SCH throughout Alexander Savage). I'm so happy to finally have someone to explain to me how I'm misunderstanding what a good or bad healer are, though! :P

And that's why you generalize. I'm sorry, but most of what you do probably ends up being with people that know what they're doing as well. You would be surprised how badly some people can screw things up even in standard content. And I'm not talking expert roulette, either, as that in itself is a bit more demanding. I'm talking about those lower "grade" dungeons that you can get in Leveling Roulette, or the 50/60 Roulette. Sure, they are mostly pretty easy. But they have instances that are prone for screwup. Serious screwup.

Of course, the very low level dungeons are irrelevant here. I mean, if a Scholars fairy can solo-heal the dungeon even with lowered potency on Embrace...there's really nothing to talk about. But party members ignoring the healer is in a bubble on that lizard boss in Brayflox? It takes a bit of time for the healer to destroy it from within (assuming the healer knows he can do it), and if the tank isn't too well-geared or wasn't at high enough HP, it may not be fast enough. Bombs in Halatali, even the mines?! Bee's in Quarns temple? The game throws things, mechanics, that are easy to avoid, but punish severely for not doing that. Especially if there is a large difference between the skill of the tank and the rest of the party, from a healers stand point, an AoE heavy dungeon can be a pain. When the tank gathers multiple packs...he can handle it with the healer...but the DPS end up falling for them. Aurum Vale and its marlboros can show you how quickly things can go south out of the blue. And the Coincounter can show you how badly some players can play. There is literally one technique that boss have that should be a threat to ranged players, yet no matter how many times I came across it, there was at least ONE ranged DPS death. Instant death, so no, a healer can't do jack squat to that, needs to recover from it. Why?! Because ranged DPS decide to come within few yards of the boss. Why?! No idea. But that's what they do. Same will all bosses. Ranged DPS and many healers in this game have a horrid tendency to come close to the boss even if he throws deadly AoE's left and right. That's understandable in small arenas or when the boss have donut-shaped or similar AoE's. But those are a minority. And ranged approach ALL bosses.

You should know the content and plan your ability use accordingly, but you should also be open for adjusting your plan based on the situation and your party.

You see...this is a very important part. And one that basically invalidates your entire argument...since it's true (and what I was saying throughout my posts past the first). Why?! Because your entire argument is based on generalization, while this one is objective.

As I said above, I wholeheartedly agree that not using the tools available is a sign of bad, or at least, inexperienced healer. However, cooldown use (or lack of it) is a situational thing based on something that the healer doesn't have control of.
First, a healer needs to know the dungeon. It cannot be done without running it at least multiple times. Seeing as you often get new people in duty finder...clearly, that's impossible to expect often. And when a healer doesn't know the dungeon?! Of course, it's safer to withold on using some/all of the cooldowns at least until the player sees the first few fights with the enemies.
Second, a healer can be paired with a paper tank, or a juggernaut. Or, like how sometimes is the case, "I won't use tank stance cause it hurts my DPS!" tank. Which would be fine if not for the fact that these sorts usually die as quickly as the DPS do as well...and don't hold enmity too well either. Ones that know what they are doing are just rarely doing this sort of content with their tanks after all. And even if they do, they tend to tank in tank stance to make it easier on the other members, at least if asked, anyway.

So yes, I play a devils advocate here. Is using the cooldowns "casually" a sign of a good healer/tank?! It may be, if they are used properly, that is. But is not doing that signs of a bad healer/tank?!...Possibly. Not necessarily. How cooldowns are used is based on factors that are out of the healers/tanks control. They need to "adapt". That's why I disagree with you saying that not using cooldowns is sign of a bad healer/tank. Not because it is inherently wrong, but before it is not clear enough.
They need to be properly timed. And for that, one needs to KNOW about the dungeon, the party and their own limitations in respect to it. The cooldowns may be short, but they do not necessarily have to be usable in every battle. A mob may take less time to clear, while the cooldown may have been used about halfway into the battle. That means that you won't have it for most of the next battle. Maybe there are these bee's with their Final Sting (which is very much survivable by the way) and the DPS just refuses to kill them fast enough. Happened more than once in my parties. So the cooldown may be used at the end of the battle. Admittedly, there is quite a lot of time after the bees where it wouldn't really be neccessary (except for another Final Sting), but hey. Stuff happens where you may end up having these skills on cooldown for most/all of a battle. And that is with planning ahead.


Rather than say that you are wrong or I am right, I'm going to say that both of us spoke of two sides of one coin. That's what it was from the get-go. So really, all I've been trying to point is...to not forget about that other side. By saying "you do it like this, you do it bad" in absolutes is just that...forgetting there is that other side. That leads to players that play only one way, then the party wipes and they complain about everyone but themselves "It's not my fault! I always did it like this and it worked! You all suck!".

[Taika]

So yes, I play a devils advocate here. Is using the cooldowns "casually" a sign of a good healer/tank?! It may be, if they are used properly, that is. But is not doing that signs of a bad healer/tank?!...Possibly. Not necessarily. How cooldowns are used is based on factors that are out of the healers/tanks control. They need to "adapt". That's why I disagree with you saying that not using cooldowns is sign of a bad healer/tank. Not because it is inherently wrong, but before it is not clear enough. They need to be properly timed. And for that, one needs to KNOW about the dungeon, the party and their own limitations in respect to it. The cooldowns may be short, but they do not necessarily have to be usable in every battle. A mob may take less time to clear, while the cooldown may have been used about halfway into the battle. That means that you won't have it for most of the next battle. Maybe there are these bee's with their Final Sting (which is very much survivable by the way) and the DPS just refuses to kill them fast enough. Happened more than once in my parties. So the cooldown may be used at the end of the battle. Admittedly, there is quite a lot of time after the bees where it wouldn't really be neccessary (except for another Final Sting), but hey. Stuff happens where you may end up having these skills on cooldown for most/all of a battle. And that is with planning ahead.

Final sting isn't something you use a cooldown for, it's something you stun. :P In any case, as we're talking about easy content here (like you said, not even expert dungeons), there's nothing there that you can't clear very well with standard use of cooldowns on each pull (rotating them so you'll have something up for each pull), even on your first run. And as saving them is more likely to get you into trouble than save you, there's no reason to do that. Apart from maybe Benediction, Hallowed ground etc. that you normally use routinely in content you're familiar with. You don't need to "properly time" Sentinel or Tetra, for example. You can and should use them in appropriate situation on the first pull they're up for.

[kikix12]

Final sting isn't something you use a cooldown for, it's something you stun.

I've said enough on the remainder. If you still think that what I said is without merit and you don't understand the slightest bit of that...then there's really no point in me continuing.

However, Final Sting is on Bee's that are in a dungeon where you either are a class (as in, Gladiator/Marauder) or have only three role abilities. Sure, Paladin have a built-in stun that he can spam (though it's on global cooldown, Final Sting have quite a warning to it if memory serves), but Warrior and Dark Knight do not. If that's the case, then you either have no stun, or only one cooldown to use in the dungeon (well, Warriors have Thrill of Battle). Unless you skip on Provoke, which technically is not needed in Quarn. Not anymore, anyway.
Alternatively...you could always be fighting two bees (quite easy to do, honestly) and just be unable to stun both.

Still, I'm willing to bet quite a lot that there's a bunch of tanks that don't take Low Blow there. Or possibly...anywhere. They really shouldn't have screwed up with the stuns the tanks had. Just add an off-cooldown stun to the Paladin, and to make up for them having two just keep it without damage. That's how it is now, but the other tanks don't have ANY without role skill...and no damage either...So really, this change was just horrid on the development part.

[Miste]

However, Final Sting is on Bee's that are in a dungeon where you either are a class (as in, Gladiator/Marauder)

Uh...Temple of Qarn is available at level 35, so there is no reason to be a class and not a job at level 35 since you obtain your job stone at level 30.

Also to be honest outside of savage "oh shi*" situations rarely happen and the fact that is it so rare makes it wasteful to hold on to abilities for an emergency that highly likely won't even happen. Not to mention using cooldowns actively helps prevent "oh shi*" situations reducing the likelihood even more.

Full wipes in normal content are really rare while in savage even just one person dying can and will cause a full wipe in certain situations so it is way more crucial that you save them. Even in Savage though depending on the difficulty like O4S for example...most healers have to follow a script of healing cooldowns in order to deal with the mechanics in an efficient way in order to keep everyone safely high HP, MP high, and in order to help with DPS to beat enrage.

So we usually cannot save things for emergencies we just have to pray it doesn't happen or adapt quick enough to make a save if it does. There are visual clues sometimes to help you see a problem is going to happen before it happens so you can react quicker with maybe timing a Cure II or something if Tetra or Bene is on cooldown and that can also be used for casual content as well.

Keeping track of what is on cooldown also helps you avoid relying on them when they aren't available. This is an efficient way to play because usually there is only one best way to contribute on your role so if Plan A is the most efficient best plan that allows you to contribute the most on your role then you follow that until you need to adapt then you can move to Plan B and structure yourself around that during the fight.

There is only so much you can do in the end so yeah you should try your best to play your job well to save an "oh shi*" situation if you can, but in general if you cannot the fault doesn't always lie with you anyway and saving your abilities might not have prevented it anyway. I mean as a WHM if people made multiple mistakes very close together and you used Bene, then Tetra, then Assize, then another person made another near fatal mistake as well soon after which could only be saved by an instant heal and you have none of those up. You just kinda go /shrug at that point, hope your co-healer can save them, and if not then be ready to scrape them off the floor instead.