Why CNJ > WHM & THM > BLM does make sense: A canoical study.

[Wynn]

The point is, this "evil" thing makes the choices obvious. THM has these skills and spells:

Scourge
Blood Rite
Dark Seal
Shadowfall
Shadowsear
Contagion

Regardless of whether THM is "evil", "absolute" or whatever it is clearly less suited to be a WHM than BLM. It is far easier and believable to turn BLM into a darker, evil, absolute Job regardless of it's past than it is to turn WHM into one.

THM also has:

Banish
Dia
Paralyze
Silence
Exaltation
Resurrect


CNJ has spells like

Burn
Drown
Nature's Fury
Not to mention all the nasty nukes

Hardly sounds all peaches and cream to me.


ME: stop saying they are evil. Nothing here is evil
YOU: but they are evil, its obvious
ME: no they aren't
YOU: they are evil cause they are evil. Look the word blood is in one of their abilities. See... EVIL
ME: /facepalm

[Betelgeuzah]

THM also has:

Banish
Dia
Paralyze
Silence
Exaltation
Resurrect

So? Those spells hardly sound like a WHM protecting his allies or healing them, they are offensive spells resurrect aside. It's still easier to fit BLM onto that template.

CNJ has spells like

Burn
Drown
Nature's Fury
Not to mention all the nasty nukes

That's the offensive part of CNJ which WHM gives up for increased healing capabilities. Those spells sound completely neutral, not dark and gloomy like THM's spells.

Hardly sounds all peaches and cream to me.

Hardly sounds dark and gloomy to me.

ME: stop saying they are evil. Nothing here is evil
YOU: but they are evil, its obvious
ME: no they aren't
YOU: they are evil cause they are evil. Look the word blood is in one of their abilities. See... EVIL
ME: /facepalm

Evil or not doesn't matter. Their abilities and spells fit BLM better than they fit WHM. This is a fact.

CNJ could go either way- THM can't with spells like Contagion and Scourge. That is why THM is BLM.

[Wynn]

...

So your argument is that THMs abilities are offensive so they are BLM but CNJs abilities are offensive so they shouldn't be BLM. Also, you really think burn and drown sound neutral?

[Betelgeuzah]

So your argument is that THMs abilities are offensive so they are BLM but CNJs abilities are offensive so they shouldn't be BLM. Also, you really think burn and drown sound neutral?

THM's abilities and spells are dark and gloomy. CNJ's abilities and spells are neutral (not dark and gloomy). That is why THM should be BLM and CNJ should be WHM. Out of both Jobs the one that fits the description of "dark and gloomy" better is BLM. WHM can keep it's neutral spells and it will be less in conflict with the Job than THM's spells are.

You can keep on insisting that BLM's aren't evil. It doesn't matter. WHM's are less likely to have access to dark and gloomy spells than BLM, thus BLM's role in this game is to be dark and gloomy.

My argument is clear and you aren't making it any less true by twisting it to suit whatever you want to say.

[Wynn]

THM's abilities and spells are dark and gloomy. CNJ's abilities and spells are neutral (not dark and gloomy). That is why THM should be BLM and CNJ should be WHM. Out of both Jobs the one that fits the description of "dark and gloomy" better is BLM. WHM can keep it's neutral spells and it will be less in conflict with the Job than THM's spells are.

You can keep on insisting that BLM's aren't evil. It doesn't matter. WHM's are less likely to have access to dark and gloomy spells than BLM, thus BLM's role in this game is to be dark and gloomy.

My argument is clear and you aren't making it any less true by twisting it to suit whatever you want to say.

Your argument is anything but clear. You are using a warped sense of morality to paint these classes into neat little black and white packages. Your inferences are completely false and invalid.

[Betelgeuzah]

You are using a warped sense of morality to paint these classes into neat little black and white packages.

Still not understanding, I see.

The forces of nature are not evil, nor good. Someone with evil intentions (in fantasy) can use them to perform evil deeds, but the nature itself has no allegiance. Thus CNJ is neither good nor evil, it is completely neutral. You simply use the nature the way you want to. You even admitted this by saying that BLM is not evil. Nature-based offensive spells do not make it evil.

On the other hand, spells like Contagion, Blood Rite, Dark Seal- anything considered "Dark" is considered "evil" or "bad". I didn't make it this way, but that's how they are conceived. Dark is "evil", Light is "good". While the nature is neutral. There is nothing "warped" in these preconceptions. If you felt the opposite then that would be warped indeed.

You can insist that nature is considered evil in some weird fantasy world in your mind, but that is not how it is generally conceived. And that said WHM is less fitting for the evil role than BLM is. Case closed.

[Wynn]

Still not understanding, I see.

The forces of nature are not evil, nor good. Someone with evil intentions (in fantasy) can use them to perform evil deeds, but the nature itself has no allegiance. Thus CNJ is neither good nor evil, it is completely neutral. You simply use the nature the way you want to.

On the other hand, spells like Contagion, Blood Rite, Dark Seal- anything considered "Dark" is considered "evil" or "bad". I didn't make it this way, but that's how they are conceived. Dark is "evil", Light is "good". While the nature is neutral. There is nothing "warped" in these preconceptions. If you felt the opposite then that would be warped indeed.

You can insist that nature is considered evil in some weird fantasy world in your mind, but that is not how it is generally conceived.

I'm not insisting nature is evil. I'm insisting your attempt to make one evil over the other is false. Just as nature is not evil, neither is death inherently evil. It is part of nature, after all. But that's irrelevent anyway because THMs don't revere death. They revere Nald'thal, who is the keeper of the afterlife, like Osiris or any other number of ancient gods who were not considered evil and were worshiped in the hopes of making a comfortable stay in heaven (or insert name for afterlife here).

You're the one who doesn't understand.

[Endemerrin]

Honestly, I really fail to see why some people are getting into a fuss over things. We have zero information on the class changes coming in 1.20, outside of the knowledge that they will be very significant. Yoshi-P has said in recent days that we will be getting information on the class changes very seen (over the weekend, supposedly) - so people need to just be patient.

While I personally am skeptical on how they will pull things off, hopefully they'll just be shifting all the elemental spells to Thaumaturge, and giving Conjurer Dia/Diaga + Banish/Banishga + etc. I mean, we all know we can't exactly have a black mage without black magic. In previous installments, black magic is elemental magic. It'd be pretty brazen of them to claim to want to bring back "original roles" and go a completely different route with black mage by giving them solely dark magic.