Dear Healers who don't DPS

[era1Ne]

Isn't it getting boring to discuss the least important community issue in this game?

Recently in expert roulette:

Me (SMN), other DD (NIN), Tank (PLD), Healer (WHM)

WHM DMG = was ok
PLD DMG = could be better
NIN DMG = awful, just awful
ME DMG = dealt more than the other 3 together

So are these always and everywhere discussed "Healer DPS Threads" some kind of distraction from the real issue?

I don't see much more important threads like "Dear Damage Dealers who don't deal acceptable Damage". Their amount should be a tripple or quadruple compared to healer DPS threads. The gain for all would be much higher than the always repeating completely stupid healer DPS discussuions.

This is absolutely on point. People talking about the bare minimum and then saying healing in dungeons is easy.While this is true and healing is indeed easy in dungeons, if the group doesn't want to kill itself every 10 seconds, these dungeons are easy for every class. For example:

• You don't really need CD for bosses
• You can stand in most of the aoe and still not be killed
• You don't have to know anything about your dd class, since an dd check is most of the time not excisting

Not everyone of them ofc, but many tanks and dd that can't play their class, for example not using any cd at all or at least not in a good way during big pulls, complain about healers and this is both, funny and sad at the same time.

Also tanks have the same issue, despite it beeing less big imo, that many tanks try to tank bosses in dungeon or other content without tank stance, but don't know why good tanks recommend it and can do it. First and foremost it is your job to survive and not be an huge burden for the healers (because you take to much dmg) or dd (getting your aggro). If you get one shot from a tank buster or loose aggro to an dd everytime, go in tank stance and stop being a burden to your team. Raid dmg >>>>>>> you and this goes for every class. This is a team game and while people have to do mistakes to get better, the same mistake shouldn't happen time and time again. Imo these kind of discussion play a part in this and if someone would make an thread in the tank sub forum asking "Is it my job to tank out of tank stance and do dps?", then even more people would try to do this and completely ignoring their main task and that good tanks can do this, because they are better than them. Thats not to say that tanks and healers (or dd for that matter) shouldn't try to get better,but they should never forgot what their main task is.

[Tridus]

So are these always and everywhere discussed "Healer DPS Threads" some kind of distraction from the real issue?

I don't see much more important threads like "Dear Damage Dealers who don't deal acceptable Damage". Their amount should be a tripple or quadruple compared to healer DPS threads. The gain for all would be much higher than the always repeating completely stupid healer DPS discussuions.

The difference is that nobody is going to argue that DPS players doing terrible DPS is acceptable. We all know they're out there, and they don't last in statics. In DF, there is little you can do about them without risking opening yourself up to punishment by talking about parsers.

The trick is that they're not controversial and won't get anyone to defend them doing terrible DPS, so no thread on the subject has legs. Contrast that to how long this thread has gone and how there's always someone willing to defend the "pure healer". That's how you get incredibly long threads that just won't stay dead.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

If you want to help those healers get better at the game and pushing themselves more and more, try to help them by being patient and telling them about healers, who can help them to get better. Don't try it yourself or tell them "healing is heasy, just use cure II all the time, because it heals more. I am a tank and know what i am doing", for instance. There are to many people, despite only about 23%* of people playing healer (most of them not at the hightest level imo) telling healers what do, when they should do it and telling them not doing dmg is the bare minimum. And stop telling them main- /off heal is good. It is not

To be fair, no one is arguing inexperienced healers need to "test their limits." There's a significant difference between dealing some damage and none whatsoever. That being said, if you're entirely new to a fight, say so. People are far more forgiving when they're forewarned by another player's inexperience and may even offer some advice. We're also not talking about those healers but the ones who actively won't try to improve or refuse to DPS on some sort of silly principle.

The difference is that nobody is going to argue that DPS players doing terrible DPS is acceptable. We all know they're out there, and they don't last in statics. In DF, there is little you can do about them without risking opening yourself up to punishment by talking about parsers.

The trick is that they're not controversial and won't get anyone to defend them doing terrible DPS, so no thread on the subject has legs. Contrast that to how long this thread has gone and how there's always someone willing to defend the "pure healer". That's how you get incredibly long threads that just won't stay dead.

Case in point, a Red Mage brought up not wanting to AoE because she felt more satisfied using single target spells. Every single response could basically be summed up as, "Yeah, no."

[Kabooa]

If the whole group played bare minimum? Debatable on how far you would get even in non EX or savage content.

The bare minimum is a basic DPS rotation for DPS, holding threat as a tank, and keeping people alive as a healer.

You can clear everything outside savage and extreme content like that. The bare minimum for success, for obvious reasons, can't lead to -losing- because then it's not a bare minimum for success.

[LittleSparrow]

As a healer it's extremely annoying to see my co healers just stand there and not DPS.

As much as healer DPS isn't held in mind at DPS checks, the game is designed in such a way that Healers do DPS.

There's just long moments where heals are simply not required at all. I don't know what's so fun about about standing around waiting for something to do.

[Ayumoo]

If you want something done a certain way, do it yourself. Problem solved. :3

[LittleSparrow]

If you want something done a certain way, do it yourself. Problem solved. :3

Yes but you can't control your co healer at all.

[Tridus]

The bare minimum is a basic DPS rotation for DPS, holding threat as a tank, and keeping people alive as a healer.

You can clear everything outside savage and extreme content like that. The bare minimum for success, for obvious reasons, can't lead to -losing- because then it's not a bare minimum for success.

Everyone doing the bare minimum certainly wasn't enough to clear Steps of Faith before they nerfed it, although if people handle the dragonkillers correctly it might be post nerf.

I've seen first hand what the bare minimum on Royal Meangerie from DPS looks like, with groups that couldn't manage to kill the tail before it retracts. While it might be technically still possible to beat it in that case, it makes the fight so much longer that I've never seen it done without inevitable errors and wipes as you can only res so many people and it gets pretty tough when you run low on places to stand.

The fun thing about the bare minimum for success is that it's definition changes depending on how many people are performing down there. An entire party at the bare minimum has a much higher "minimum" that one with seven people playing well and one carry.

Which goes back to the core point - ignoring large parts of your kit by doing the least you can get away with is making everyone else work that much harder to carry you. That's not behavior that should be encouraged in team play. That lots of content is forgiving enough for carrying you to be possible isn't a justification for doing that, because it won't work if everyone behaves the same way.

[Miste]

Miste,
lots of misunderstanding here, maybe I didn't make myself clear enough.

First, as it has been said many times, the game content was tuned without healer dps in mind.

No matter what he says unless the game design that is currently enforced for healers changes in some way then his statement means nothing because objectively the game leaves way too many opportunities for healers to DPS and objectively if you aren't using those opportunities you could be playing better and contributing more.

Just because content isn't tuned with healer DPS in mind doesn't somehow make healer DPS useless that's the whole problem. He is simply stating a fact about how they designed the amount of HP of enemies in encounters, but the healer DPS capability is still very strong, and there are many places to use it. So it adds to contribution if you are skilled enough to do it and speed up runs and of course avoid being the only player in the group idling. DPS roles always have to be pressing buttons to do high DPS in an encounter, tank's also have to keep pressing buttons to hold hate and mitigate and do DPS, why do healers get a pass to stand around idle watching netflix and only pressing some buttons once in awhile?

Equal effort and all that.

I never said that !
What I find ridiculous is using one's position as a better player to belittle another player, which isn't the same thing at all !!!

If I misunderstood I apologize, but...I think the reason I misunderstood is that most of us debating in here are not doing ^that so....

But now lately, all that elite harassement has began to become more and more common. And young people will often emulate what they find "cool". And how youngsters look the "coolest" nowadays on the internet is sadly through harassement... So if more and more people give the impression that healer DPS is mandatory, it will more and more become a reason for those little toxic players to yell at any healer that isn't DPSing.

You cannot blame every pro-healer DPS person for the rude actions of other people. We are basically having a discussion about how the healer role in this game functions and why healers should be actively putting effort in to DPSing when they can, if others go out and harass healers over it how is that my fault for example?

It is also our job as better players to be constructive and not just take the "git gud" shortcut.

I am always constructive in-game. You know what I get told back at me for my polite constructive advice?

"it's my sub I play how I want", "mind your own business", "insert nasty swears and harassment", and it goes on.

You are another person not seeing the other side of things that it is not only the "better" players that harass others. So if you are going to campaign for people not to harass others you should also campaign the other side of it as well.

I have an earlier post I made about this problem as well if you missed it maybe.

click on the blue >> near my name to go see this post if you care to read it

The bare minimum for success

I never said "for success" anywhere in either of my previous posts?

What I was saying in my previous post about not going into DF doing bare minimum "for your role" was that you shouldn't go in and only spam one button just because you can. A MNK spamming Dragon Kick over and over is technically fulfilling the bare minimum of his role. On a basic level as long as a DPS job is doing more than 0 DPS then they are still fulfilling the basic requirement... albeit badly and very minimalist.

This is just turning into a semantics argument so I'm sorry but I am not interested in it. You are simply trying to nitpick one singular sentence in my previous post to try to prove some kind of point, but it isn't even the main point of that post at all and you misinterpreted what I meant by bare minimum and tacked on something that I didn't even say.

[era1Ne]

DPS roles always have to be pressing buttons to do high DPS in an encounter, tank's also have to keep pressing buttons to hold hate and mitigate and do DPS, why do healers get a pass to stand around idle watching netflix and only pressing some buttons once in awhile?

Healer getting a pass? Pls this community can be very toxic about healers and some even get kicked, because they don't do or do dmg or get insulted, blamed for others mistakes and stuff like that. You want to know imo the reason only about 23% play healers, because many ex healer main have enough of this and this is sad to see in my opinion.

While i get that everyone wants equal effort from everyone, many people can't grasp that their is an emotional part to this all for healers. Instead of some saying those healers are lazy or every healer who does no or very little dps is doing it for the reason "i am a healer, you don't pay my sub", should try to ask them in an friendly manner why they don't do dmg. I ask healers who ask me for help, why they don't do dps and they say that they don't want to let people die, because of their own mistakes. We don't need to talk about the game design or how much time you have to do dmg, we need to at least start trying to understand why they don't dps and imo this is in most cases an confident issue or they don't know a lot about their class.

For instance, how can you kill people in an dungeon as a melee when you mess up your rotation? Not possible, since most of the time you don't have dmg check there. This means ofc you can push yourself further without thinking "If i don't react fast enough, people will die and blame/kick me sometimes". Don't get me wrong, i tell every healer i've helped that they should try to do dps, because it helps the group clear content faster or even at all, if you are close to the enrage in some harder fights. But, we need to understand as an community people are playing for different reasons and have different skill-/confident level. Instead of telling them what to do, blaming them for everything, maybe try to ease them the idea of healing and dps, because ofc it is possible. Totally, but those guys need to get more confident to do it and less toxic people.