Dear Healers who don't DPS

[Vyriah]

I do get it, but I don't agree with it.

You can't force your expectation about the game on any one, healer DPS isn't require to do proprer dungeon, it's only a bonus for really quick run. Most of the time, it doesn't ask more than two players to make a dungeon really smoother, no matter their role, and really huge fuck-ups to make it really longer. So if two player agree to kick someone, anyone, to get more DPS on the next roll they could as well just get things done themselves. Expert dungeon are the major pain to do, but they're the one with the overall better player.

Thing is, you missed the fact there's already a lot of healer that won't player with randoms because they don't want to deal with the shit in PF, and getting told they sucks. So they go in FC and so. There's a lot players who extremly low APM, or that aren't confident in content with other player and things like that. There's a lot of those player types on MMO with such large playerbase, and a lot of them ren't gonna grab the healers. Because they like that non aggressive take on the content, because they don't want high excecution based jobs. Some people may be leveling all job without being proficient about any of them. And that's all fine, these are way to play de game.

As a tool, dungeon finder is made for accessibility, not efficiency. When you use it, you agree to proc a dungeon quickly, but you don't choose with who end up with. that's the privilege of PF. I think player don't have the habbit of using it for quick run while it would be perfect for that. When you recruit your team like that, you can fix the rules and not just expect anyone to know how you want to play. I do see some farming dungeon partie sometimes, but I'm not sure why it's not more frequent. It's the right tool for what you want, PF is more about having less interaction between player.

But in the end, if you're the one finding the player you and up with not go enough, it's not everybody else that need to abide your rules. Most player will play the way they do because they think it's fine and to be honest, to game is more and the side healer doing only healing than healer doing DPS. The way Cure 1 and Cure 2 interact with one another is gonna make everyone think "I should use Cure 1 until free Cure 2 happen most of the time". And that's also why lilies were made the way they are, but it would a have asked a much more radical revamp on the game to work that way.

[Miste]

You can't force your expectation about the game on any one, healer DPS isn't require to do proprer dungeon

Where did I say healer DPS is required?

Where did I say I force my expectation on another player?

I actually said the exact opposite that neither side can go into DF with expectations. I mean I can highlight this again for you?

You cannot have expectations in DF which works on both sides of this argument. People cannot expect the healer they get will always do DPS, BUT people also cannot expect to go into a DF on healer and always get people that are OKAY with a healer not DPSing at all.

This is what I meant about the argument you were using being hypocritical. Both sides cannot have expectations

So...you are accusing me of saying one thing when I actually said the exact opposite.

I do get it

No you don't. I just had to requote my own post from earlier to show you that you have it completely backwards.

Like I said, you simply do not understand what I am saying. Either that or you simply are not bothering to read what I am saying. You are wasting your time preaching to me about healer DPS in DF since I just ignore it if a healer isn't DPSing. They won't get a comm from me, but I don't say anything to them and I don't vote kick unless people verbally harass someone.

I will still advocate that not DPSing as a healer is sub-optimal play and will always be sub-optimal play unless SE changes how healing works in this game. Based on how the game is designed this is just a simple fact and cannot be argued against.

[Vyriah]

Eh, that's some stellar level of sophistic at work, here.

That's just wordplay, you're moving the goalpost. That part about expectation is too widely generalized to mean anything anymore, it's too far from what I wrote it for to begin with. I was talking about adapting to how every is actualy playing, not what everyone want. You can't adapt to what everyone wants, and that's exactly why you don't listen advice of random player in dungeon finder (you'll hear the exact opposite the next run anyway). You ask your friends or search a tutorial about it. That's meta-game kind of things.
But then, it doesn't matter that much, it's just a small part of what I written and the rest was how the game is actually made with sub-optimal play in mind.

Also, you're the one got out of nowhere calling me hypocrite, I was just answering to that.
I just using your intervention as way to develop what I want to on the initial subject. I'm just posting to offer a different point of view possible for anyone else reading it.

[Miste]

Also, you're the one got out of nowhere calling me hypocrite, I was just answering to that.

I didn't call you personally a hypocrite. I said the argument itself that you chose to use is hypocritical. There is a difference.

That's just wordplay, you're moving the goalpost. That part about expectation is too widely generalized to mean anything anymore, it's too far from what I wrote it for to begin with.

No it isn't just wordplay unfortunately...again you still don't understand what I was saying or you are just being purposefully obstinate. You cannot argue against facts anyway so I am not sure why you keep trying. The argument you made that I told you is hypocritical is factually hypocritical.

You cannot tell one side of the argument to "go use PF/FC/Friends and play with them if you have expectations of healer DPS", when your side could also "go use PF/FC/Friends and play with them if you have the expectation that people should automatically accept healers that do 0 DPS"

You have basically said you have the expectation that healers should be able to go into DF and do 0 DPS and everyone else cannot vote kick them for it and they must accept their playstyle. So if you are allowed to have this expectation for DF then unfortunately others are allowed their expectations that healers should be doing some DPS.

Either everyone can have expectations or no one can have expectations. Have to decide which one you want to follow. If you are allowed to have expectations then you cannot tell others they cannot have them. Sorry it just doesn't work like that.

Anyone want some?

Aw...I just ate some chips...now no room for popcorns ;_;

Is this directed at me?

Hrm considering that poster is openly rude to Moro I am thinking this post is them shamelessly being rude to Moro again.

I don't think it is about you Penthea...at least I would hope not. You didn't do anything wrong at all...then again Moro was a bit blunt with their post before but they don't deserve this rudeness either. -_-

[Xtrasweettea]

[…]
You cannot tell one side of the argument to "go use PF/FC/Friends and play with them if you have expectations of healer DPS", when your side could also "go use PF/FC/Friends and play with them if you have the expectation that people should automatically accept healers that do 0 DPS" [...]

This is not to pick on you, Miste, or anyone else being addressed in regard to your responses.
You bring up a point that I have thought about, and others have said:

How come those who tell others to use PF for X, are not using PF for anit-X?

For this example:
How come the anit-healer DPS are telling ABCers to use PF, but anti-DPSers always never have to use PF for them to never DPS (or never ABC)?

I had originally written up this big point, but then I realized by TLDR just does a better job…

TLDR;
It is easier to stay on the lower end of the bell curve and claim others that are to the right of you on the curve to be “elitist” than it is to admit one’s own faults and try to change one’s behavior towards a path of improvement.

Suggesting for them to use PF for their own selfish way of playing would go against their play-style choices, and therefore they cannot accept the idea or admit that your augment is sound. They would rather force others in DF to meet their demands rather than meet the demands of the group.

[MoroMurasaki]

all this stuff

You have discredited yourself in my eyes. My post was strongly worded but yours was an insult-laden tirade. I'm not sure what pushed you off the deep end but after the way you've behaved you can stay there as far as I'm concerned.

If any of you saying that healers who don't DPS aren't being lazy actually had a party comprised of nothing but players of that caliber I would be surprised if you could clear current content. At the end of the day this game relies so heavily on teamwork and a healer who is okay with riding the coattails of their team likely doesn't put much stock in that.

There are so many arguments for expected healer DPS here that have never recieved any kind of rebuttal (likely because there isn't one to make) and yet in 35 pages I haven't seen a single person on the side of the "pure" healers be able to make a point that holds water.

If a healer can only heal can a tank only flash? This was proven to hold aggro by a player in this very thread.

Since killing enemies mtigates damage aren't healers helping themselves when they DPS? Dead mobs can't hit back.

Holy's stun lock is some of the best mitigation in the game on big pulls, it stops everything. Why wouldn't you use that?

It is courteous to your party to DPS as a healer, both for run speed and also (almost more importantly) so that while they are doing the best they can they aren't watching you stand there and do nothing.

Almost all current casual content is so simple that if you aren't DPSing as a healer you must enjoy just blankly staring at the screen waiting for some kind of damage. Someone brought up O2N earlier; I did that tonight and if I didn't DPS or intentionally overheal I would have been standing in one place not moving for 30 seconds or more, this is like the height of current casual content and you can literally AFK for 30 seconds on it... Why would you not DPS?

I just don't understand. There are all these compelling reasons to DPS and no counter arguments but "my sub" and yet you people still beat this dead horse. Why? Why do you want to do something so boring? I just don't get it.

Im waiting for the "Tank dps more" and "DPS dps more" thread. Very rarely i see a tank breaking 1.5k dps and actual dps doing 3.6k - 4k+ dps. If you want me to do more i expect the same from you

Most of the threads in those forums are about how to optimize the DPS of those roles. Also it is worlds easier for a healer dping next to no DPS to add 500-1k DPS where as DPS doing 3.5-4k adding that much would be a lot tougher.

[Ghishlain]

-snip-

There are so many arguments for expected healer DPS here that have never recieved any kind of rebuttal (likely because there isn't one to make) and yet in 35 pages I haven't seen a single person on the side of the "pure" healers be able to make a point that holds water.

-snip-

I just don't understand. There are all these compelling reasons to DPS and no counter arguments but "my sub" and yet you people still beat this dead horse. Why? Why do you want to do something so boring? I just don't get it.

-snip-

As you mentioned, there are a lot of compelling reasons to DPS which I do not disagree with.

My beef with some of the healer-DPS crowd is that you must DPS and you are expected to DPS.

Everyone plays at varying levels of skills and comfort and yes, some of these non-DPS players are lazy because they know they can get away with being lazy like that. But I absolutely dislike generalized branding like that, which applies both ways IE all non-DPS healers are lazy and terrible and all DPS-healers are elitist scum.

I guess I'll rebuttal your argument with a question - why must a healer DPS?

I'll reiterate for both of us - there are compelling reasons to DPS including mobs dying faster thus needing less healing (though more MP is generally spent overall), faster and more efficient runs (and generally safer runs, depending on the content), and being able to clear content under their intended item level.

But again, why must a healer DPS? This is my beef is when extreme players make the outlandish claim that any healer who doesn't DPS with the appropriate windows of opportunity to do so are consider terrible and beneath the scum of the earth. That's my beef. Call me a care bear but if you want healers to actually want to play a healer, you don't cultivate a community with antagonistic comments indicating how poor they're doing because they don't fully understand the nuances of healing just yet. Not everyone does this, yes, but when it does hit, it becomes a sticking point in the discussion.

Again, why must a healer DPS? There are compelling reasons on why they should DPS but when the dev's come out and say, repeatedly, that there is no intention to include healer DPS in raid clear calculations at appropriate ilvls, why does the community need to force healers to DPS then?

It just reminds me of people saying "I need to have a luxury car!" and not "I would like to have a luxury car". The connotations are different and people respond differently to said connotations.

Oh, and before the tank-enmity argument comes out again - do note that the producer has gone on record that they do tune for a predicted level of DPS from both the tanks and DPS. A tank who's just spamming Flash / Overpower / Unleash is most likely not hitting that predicted level of DPS.

[Taika]

Again, why must a healer DPS? There are compelling reasons on why they should DPS

You're really answering to your own question here. They should DPS because, if, and when they can. If you can be helpful to your party, you should, and it's fair for others to expect that from you. If you can be helpful to your party, there's no sensible reason or justification for choosing not to.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

But again, why must a healer DPS? This is my beef is when extreme players make the outlandish claim that any healer who doesn't DPS with the appropriate windows of opportunity to do so are consider terrible and beneath the scum of the earth. That's my beef.

Why should I use Shadow Wall or Sheltron? Because it makes your job easier and the run more efficient. That same logic applies to healers. If you expect DPS to maneuver around aoes and tanks to mitigate when neither will kill them, why shouldn't they expect you to contribute equally? If we're going to argue playstyle, I frequently drop tank stance whenever I get pure healers regardless of my pull sizes, so long as I'll survive. The abrupt spike of incoming damage may stress some players yet your argument posits they aren't allowed to complain. I'm still doing by job, I've simply made yours more of a hassle. If you were to complain, it's inherently hypocritical because now you're asking I do something different to make things smoother for you but aren't willing to reciprocate through DPS.

Basically, this whole thread can be summed up with, everyone should contribute evenly when the opportunity arises, be it through damage, utility or healing. Use your full toolkit and make the run smooth for everyone.

[Ghishlain]

You're really answering to your own question here. They should DPS because, if, and when they can. If you can be helpful to your party, you should, and it's fair for others to expect that from you. If you can be helpful to your party, there's no sensible reason or justification for choosing not to.

I'm okay with this because I feel it's important for people to learn to use their kits at the optimal level. Not everyone will be able to but at least understanding what boundaries to push is important to player growth.

However, again my beef continues with people who claim that it's absolutely critical for a healer to be DPSing else they are only causing the group to fail.

Again, I continue to ask - why must a healer DPS? Don't tell me why they should - tell me why they must. Most of you will fall flat trying to find a solid argument that cannot be rebutted in this regard because there is no argument for a healer to DPS.

Again, it's a luxury versus a need.

And just for your knowledge, my train of thought is meant to encourage other players to see both sides of the coin and understand that not everyone will be able to play at the levels we would like them to play at. This goes for both sides of the coin, healer-DPS expecting DPS and no-DPS expecting healers to sit still and heal all day. All this does it cause strife within the community that I'm hoping to just raise awareness and change the tone towards topic.

Arguing with me in terms of "Must" and "Expectations" only reinforces an insular community that is rigid and unaccepting of players because, while they can perform their core function, they're not doing it to "my expectations" which again leads back to the "muh sub" tirades.

Why should I use Shadow Wall or Sheltron? Because it makes your job easier and the run more efficient. That same logic applies to healers. If you expect DPS to maneuver around aoes and tanks to mitigate when neither will kill them, why shouldn't they expect you to contribute equally? If we're going to argue playstyle, I frequently drop tank stance whenever I get pure healers regardless of my pull sizes, so long as I'll survive. The abrupt spike of incoming damage may stress some players yet your argument posits they aren't allowed to complain. I'm still doing by job, I've simply made yours more of a hassle. If you were to complain, it's inherently hypocritical because now you're asking I do something different to make things smoother for you but aren't willing to reciprocate through DPS.

Basically, this whole thread can be summed up with, everyone should contribute evenly when the opportunity arises, be it through damage, utility or healing. Use your full toolkit and make the run smooth for everyone.

Just to reiterate my response to Taika above, the goal in my posts is to try to get more players to consider all facets of a player and their skill and knowledge. Not saying you do this specifically, but claiming a healer is terrible because they don't DPS without understand the circumstances (they may be new, they be getting used to new content, they may have had a sudden emergency phone call they had to attend to, etc.) just reinforces a negative community that, to be honest I'd like to curb stomp out.

I'm being an idealistic crusader right now and I will openly admit that. It won't stop me from trying (at least for now, lol)

I will say if you're looking at absolute equality in terms of activity, output, and responsibility, you're never going to find that. Tanks and Healer's have an inherently higher responsibility threshold due to the nature of their roles compared to DPS. If you look at DPS just spamming 1-2-3 combos, some DPS will have a higher output than others. Players accept these inequalities. Yet for some reason we cannot seem to accept a healer that doesn't DPS and healers have been kicked and bad mouthed for doing no DPS. Doesn't that seem wrong? This is just my food for thought question.

You must try to help the team clear the content, to the best of your ability. If you are too busy (or to OOM) keeping people alive to do DPS, then so be it. If you're standing around doing nothing? You can help kill it faster.

That is the same expectation on every single player in the game when doing group content.

A healer's primary responsibility is still the health of their party because you can't clear if everyone is dead. Anything they offer is icing onto the healer cake at that point. I'm not going to to tell you to not DPS if the opportunity presents itself, but I'm also not going to tell you to DPS when the windows are their either.

The goal is to clear the content, it just so happens every role's goal post is at a different yard marker. Anything that role kicks beyond that yard marker is a nice bonus.

Everyone has differing opinions on acceptable even though all those definitions of acceptable is correct. I'm just trying to show while there is one best solution to the encounter problem, there are definitely multiple solutions below that will still allow the groups to clear their content. This is the point I'm trying to drive home right now - don't ostracize a player because they don't play at your level whether higher or lower than your own. Learn to accept that not everyone can meet your own expectations but we can still clear this content together regardless of that and I feel that's the point the developers are attempting to drive home too with their continual insistence that healer DPS isn't calculated or required.

I'm definitely in agreement with you on the role name thing tho. Huge swathes of these threads revolve around little more than semantics and it's pretty hard to break that circle for more than a page or two at the best of times.

I got a feeling if they did this we'd have equal number of discussions on the semantics of "support" vs "healers" but I think I'd prefer that over the healer DPS debate we currently have, lol. At least that discussion wouldn't revolve around the extremely broad range of skill in the healer community.

====

I will admit it's been pretty enlightening playing the devil's advocate on this particular topic. If anything it's improved my critical thinking skills and elevated my patience some. I know I'm on a losing side of the debate looking at the post likes but I won't really stop either as I like to advocate acceptance and understanding of all levels of play skill and comfort.