Just realized something: FFXIV is a terrible DPS player's DREAM come true...

[Shurrikhan]

On the first point, a parser being in game wouldn't have changed anything. That person was willing to get better when advised. They didn't need a parser in game to do so. hey didn't need actual visible proof in game to see they needed to improve. Someone told them and they did. That's the point I'm getting at here. You keep bringing me examples of people getting better after they were told they could and I'm sitting here wondering why it keeps getting brought up as if you can't do that already?

Because they were absolutely events triggered by a parser. Now, without one that could have simply occurred a few runs later, or the very next, but the fact the advice arrived when it did because there was far less effort required on the part of the improving-player-to-be's party members to notice that a problem was occurring. Their knowledge wasn't the issue; their attention and sense of urgency was, and each was supplied at a single glance by a parser.

I have never once said or even implied that self-improvement is impossible without a parser. I have said that it is a helpful tool, however large or small its margin in the hands of various players.

I guess to put it another way, I fail to see how the harm you suggest, if even existent, outweighs the boon, however small you might find it.

Maybe our experiences with "epeen waving" have just varied tremendously, as I've yet to see it occur even once. (I've seen friendly competition between DPS. I've enjoyed the same myself. But I have never seen anyone boasting about their numbers outside of their raid group following a particularly DPS-solid attempt or clear.) I have, on the other hand been threatened to be reported multiple times because I've said as a tank, "my bad, our DPS isn't high enough for a pull of that size; I'll trim back" when breaking in a quickly learning healer, or especially if one of the DPS made light of said healer when the matter was out of his or her hands; survival revolved around at least a couple mobs dying before I ran out of every single CD, and no amount of mana-burning heal spam can make up for that if the mobs are dropping at half their DF-average speed.

Now, perhaps that is biasing me; I'd honestly prefer that people grow a pair and not take an objective inference or rational compromise as personal vindication against them by a player who, I'm sorry to say, probably is not invested enough in them as a specific person to get any enjoyment out of insulting them, and I think plain information would help in that regard. If I can't make them understand anything outside of their tunnel vision, I'd like to at least be able to say, "Given the healer and I's gear and CDs, we'd have needed about xxxx output, in my experience spamming this dungeon with various groups, to get through that. If you don't feel comfortable making up that difference, I'm going to cut back so we don't die, especially now that my CDs are down," and they would have that number in front of them, everything out on the table so to speak. That sounds very much like a positive, helpful, and toxicity-reductive change to me, based on my experiences.

Half the time it feels like there's this ambiguous void, or wall of passive confrontation, by anyone who staunchly feels like they might have something to lose if anyone did know how they were doing just based on the damn stereotype. I've yet to see "parser discrimation" in the sense of people being weeded out based on their numbers without so much as a offer of support. I've seen reverse aplenty, where anyone who expects basic competency must somehow be elitist and parsing. And the funny thing is, you're not going to kill that boggie-man by actually finding a way to remove parsers completely. You only get rid of that my pulling those afraid of it out of their closets. Oh look, those are my performance indexes. Hmm. I'll do with that what I will. Not some terrifying, morally bankrupt, infringing, and masturbatory tool, but just... information.

So what exactly is the harm you're assuming here? Because I truly cannot see how it outweighs the benefits, whether in terms of convenience, fairness, or community impact.

[Delily]

Sorry to all of those who I have insulted when you partied with me and I had ACT up.

You aren't allowed to say anything anyway so no one does; so how do people accomplish "putting down" other people?

So, because people already run parsers but you can't mention them is why people aren't currently criticized? Have either of you 2 played WoW, where parsers are expected?

Sure it tells me if my rotation in general is correct and sufficient, but beating on a dummy, and beating on savage, and primals, whilst juggling mechanics is something entirely different, even with the over-inflated DPS check for passing the dummies.

That's where the challenge comes in, if you know your rotation is solid, then performing that with mechanics is important. The reason that your individual numbers aren't important is that there are 7 other people there presumably doing the same thing, as we're talking about a static pushing EX content. Your feedback is if you beat the encounter.

[Clicked]

Everyone who says I should be watching the rotation of other people, what in the actual hell are y'all going on about? I have ENOUGH to look at on my screen that I should not have to learn every job in the game and ensure everyone's DoT is up for them. That's absurd!

Anyway, at this point I would settle with having a personal DPS meter for your damage only. At least then I don't need a 3rd party tool to see how effective my rotation is when I try different things in a fight. It may also encourage those with low DPS to find ways to improve their damage.

[Miste]

So, because people already run parsers but you can't mention them is why people aren't currently criticized? Have either of you 2 played WoW, where parsers are expected?

Wait this is about criticism? Constructive and politely phrased criticism is not "putting down people" so I think you have something confused here.

There are many things about the gameplay in this game where you do not even need a parser to see that someone is doing something incorrectly. You can offer help to a player who is objectively playing improperly...unless you phrase it rudely then it is not harassment or "putting down people". It was simply someone guiding someone else to learn the best way to handle something. Similar to education in real life. You make mistakes and you get constructive criticism back from the professor in order to learn what you did wrong.

SE basically made the mentor system just for that. So more experienced players could help and guide newer players to learn the game.

If some people are unwilling to learn then there isn't much to be done, but it is not "putting someone down" to offer criticism in a nice way to try to help them out.

Also...yes I've played WoW and I've never been harassed because of a parser. Been harassed in that game for many other reasons because their community is so large that there are some really bad seeds, but not because of parsers.

You made two (badly generalized) statements.

1. Parsers in PUGs are only for epeen

and

2. Parsers in PUGs are only for putting down others

My post corrected you about these generalized statements you made. My post wasn't about them adding an official parser or not. I personally don't care because I use PC and there is a parser I could use if I wanted to.

What you said was just generalizing everyone into your own little basket of "if you use a parser in a PUG then you are automatically a terrible person who just wants epeen and wants to make fun of others". That's pretty rude to throw everyone into that basket. Like I said some people use them to see their own performance and to try to improve themselves.

[uvuvwevwevweonyetenyevweugwemu]

Their knowledge wasn't the issue; their attention and sense of urgency was, and each was supplied at a single glance by a parser.

Triggers and parsers are 2 different things. The game has battle logs and visual/audio triggers. As for the emergency of it really depends on awareness of person.
Not all boss actions will be visual because that was the intended effect. Using triggers from a parser however IS cheating because it breaks the intended play and
not everyone wants their hands hold all the time.

If it's something really easily missed in the battle logs, there's no shame requesting an action to have visual/audio trigger. No different to an arrow stack/markers.

Like I said some people use them to see their own performance and to try to improve themselves.

A parser is always used for comparing, never personal use. To compare means it's with another player.
Yes you can configure one to show only yours, what context does it bring to your goal if your success depends on the party?
Everytime my df pops I don't expect anyone to be as normally capable the same. Did you know this game was rated most
disabled-friendly game in 2013? If you could see one, they always try their hardest. So why can't normal person do that?

[Xtrasweettea]

So, because people already run parsers but you can't mention them is why people aren't currently criticized? Have either of you 2 played WoW, where parsers are expected?

Yes I have played WoW. I have gotten more negative reactions from other players for me playing a Dwarf rouge than any number from DPS meters.

As for the other part of your question, Miste, who is much more eloquent than I am in expressing their points, gave what I would have given you as an answer.

[Miste]

A parser is always used for comparing, never personal use. To compare means it's with another player.
Yes you can configure one to show only yours, what context does it bring to your goal if your success depends on the party?

You don't understand how you can use a parser to see and improve your own performance. It is not always used for comparing against others. You can compare it against yourself which is personal use.

For example: Say I go into a dungeon I do that dungeon's bosses and pay attention to my DPS. I remember things I am unsure about like "would using ability A be better in that situation than ability B" or maybe I should try using a slightly different rotation to see if I do better DPS.

So then the next time I go into the dungeon and do those same bosses I compare how much my DPS has gone up or down from the last time I was in there and then I can see if I am doing better or worse based on the things I tried to change about how I play. If my DPS went up then I know I made good progress and corrected my mistakes. There are some variables you need to look out for, but in general you'll likely come across some runs where there were little extra variables that would alter the data by very much.

You can also do this on a striking dummy to see in a basic situation with no mechanics and movement how much damage you can do and try to beat your own numbers to see if you can play better. If you analyze mathematically how the job is supposed to be played you can try to do that on a dummy and if you can replicate that damage even 60% with mechanics and movement in an actual fight then you know you are doing something right. Then it is just practice your rotation more and more and watch your numbers go up as you learn fights and learn what works for you.

If you notice this requires nothing except your own data. You do not need to compare to someone else in your group to improve your own DPS. In general unless the other DPS in your group is the same job as you this would be a bad thing to do anyway. Each job has different difficulty and some do more than others at certain levels and in general they are not all the same. Some jobs have lower DPS but more utility like BRD where SAM has no utility but has high DPS numbers. A BRD doing 100% will never do as much DPS as a SAM at 100%.

You can get used to how much damage a job should be doing by just analyzing tooltips to figure out if you are mathematically attempting to play the job correctly or even half correctly and go from there with analyzing how much DPS you do with one rotation and then trying a different one.

If someone REALLY wants to compare with someone else there is a lot of data online that you can look at to get a baseline from of what DPS you should be at least attempting to aim for. Since those people share their performance willingly then it isn't an issue and you don't even need to see what people in the same party as you in-game are doing to know if your DPS is good.

So no, "a parser is never used for personal use" is an incorrect statement.

TL;DR: This is how you use a parser without comparing against others.

You fight a striking dummy and do 3000 DPS.
You fight it again and you changed some things and you do 3500 DPS. (What you changed is obviously better)
You fight it again trying another rotation and you do 4000 DPS (Hey look you can objectively see you are getting better by comparing it with your previous parses)
So now you can do your best in actual fights to replicate the rotation that did the most DPS for you. Win.

[Jim_Berry]

As a DRK. I know dps is slow if I can activate Blood Price twice within a three-mob pull.

[CosmicKirby]

That's where the challenge comes in, if you know your rotation is solid, then performing that with mechanics is important. The reason that your individual numbers aren't important is that there are 7 other people there presumably doing the same thing, as we're talking about a static pushing EX content. Your feedback is if you beat the encounter.

Imagine you're back in Highschool. The teacher gives the class a popquiz. If the class' average is below 60%, everyone gets a failing grade, if the average is above, everyone gets 100% (And some randomly lucky people get Extra Credit drops).

Do you see how absurd this line of thinking is? Individual data and accountability is crucial. It's much harder and unnecessary to make the guy pulling 99 percentile word's best DPS perform better. It's far easier and more logical to get the guy only pulling 50th percentile to improve. There's clearly more room to do so and it makes more sense.


I don't know much about cars, so I don't pretend to know about them.

[RichardButte]

A parser is always used for comparing, never personal use. To compare means it's with another player.

And that player can simply be:

A) The player who publishes lists of what DPS are parsing in savage raids.

or

B) Your former self who was doing more or less DPS and whom you need to pay the MOST attention to.

It's not uncommon for a player's DPS to actually go DOWN if they start focusing too much on mechanics and let their rotation slip. Parsers are just as good of a reminder to make you say, "Uh oh, I'm dropping something, here..."

He's right about this; parsers are invaluable tools for statics, as it lets them understand their performance when they're pushing content. For PUGs and the general population, parsers are nothing but ePeen waving and a reason to put down other people.

Thing is, if someone is going to be a jerk to other players, they're not going to need parsers as an excuse to do that. They're going to be a jerk anyway. If the DPS is slow, I'm more likely to get blamed for it because I play a MCH, even if I'm a good 500 over the other DPS.

In the absence of real data, people go off of hearsay and bullcrap.

And I'd love to just have a PERSONAL parser so I can compare my numbers to those of similarly geared MCHs (which are posted on the internet) to determine if there's some extra damage I could be squeezing out of my rotation somewhere.