Paladin too overpowered, nerf their damage output!

[SyzzleSpark]

Every job in the game is saddled with abilities like this that are situational and don't necessarily boost your DPS, your mitigation, do your dishes and make pancakes.

DRG: Piercing Talon - the most mobile job in the game, 3 gap closers, and yet it has this crappy ranged ability that does awful damage for an insane TP cost, BUT if all your jumps are on CD and you have to leave the boss for an extended period, its useable.
PLD: Shield Bash - nothing need stunning? then its useless. Tempered Will - no knockbacks? useless.
DRK: Dark Mind - no magic damage? useless. Sole Survivor - no adds? useless. And then there's Dark Passenger.
SMN: Tri-bind!
BLM: Scathe... eh... if you gotta move for a long time and have no procs/swiftcast... maybe?
WAR: Shake it Off!
...And these are just the jobs that I've played at 60-70.

Idk where people get this entitled mindset that every last one of their abilities must have multiple effects and never ever be situational or make you think about how you can make use of it. Everything needn't have 3 different additional effects, a 4 paragraph tooltip and be completely idiot-proof and benefit you no matter what the situation.

Shake it off is pretty bad, yeah, but the degree of RAGE over this ability merely existing is so petulant and silly when every job in the game as abilties that aren't particularly useful in high-end content or are very situational, and Shake it Off getting added to a job that frankly didn't need much more over what it already had, to me, doesn't warrant a chorus of Simple Plan's "Untitled" and rivers of tears.

[MauvaisOeil]

Every job in the game is saddled with abilities like this that are situational and don't necessarily boost your DPS, your mitigation, do your dishes and make pancakes.

DRG: Piercing Talon - the most mobile job in the game, 3 gap closers, and yet it has this crappy ranged ability that does awful damage for an insane TP cost, BUT if all your jumps are on CD and you have to leave the boss for an extended period, its useable.
PLD: Shield Bash - nothing need stunning? then its useless. Tempered Will - no knockbacks? useless.
DRK: Dark Mind - no magic damage? useless. Sole Survivor - no adds? useless. And then there's Dark Passenger.
SMN: Tri-bind!
BLM: Scathe... eh... if you gotta move for a long time and have no procs/swiftcast... maybe?
WAR: Shake it Off!
...And these are just the jobs that I've played at 60-70.

Idk where people get this entitled mindset that every last one of their abilities must have multiple effects and never ever be situational or make you think about how you can make use of it. Everything needn't have 3 different additional effects, a 4 paragraph tooltip and be completely idiot-proof and benefit you no matter what the situation.

Shake it off is pretty bad, yeah, but the degree of RAGE over this ability merely existing is so petulant and silly when every job in the game as abilties that aren't particularly useful in high-end content or are very situational, and Shake it Off getting added to a job that frankly didn't need much more over what it already had, to me, doesn't warrant a chorus of Simple Plan's "Untitled" and rivers of tears.

Because new abilities are awaited as something exciting or at least usefull. Most people don't care about ARR old skills that are here since the beginning of the game when you got a whopping bag of abilities throught levelling to 50. Some of them remain useless, it's true, but they didn't feel negatively impactfull because they were flooded in a lot of other good things.

Here you have 10 more levels with only a few abilities (4 for warriors, more or less depending of the job), and one of them is utter shit. Not something "situationnal", but real shit. Of course a cleanse COULD be something cool, if the game design with tied about critical debuffs you can remove. But every relevant content has critical debufs untied to being "not cleansable".

This ability would have been a 40ish skill not one would care, because there was so much new skills despite of this.

Most job have new elements of gameplay due to the new expansion skills. It is the case for the PLD with requiescat and holy spirit and it's good for them. It is the case with TBN for DRK and it should feel good, but we've lost some things on the way to obtain this and it makes the skill less appealing due to this (I still enjoy the mechanic, but quite not that it's almost all the tankyness I have)

IR has some new impact but they fell lackluster, as spamming FC doesn"t bring "that much dps". It's cool, but it could have been less of a spammy spam badly brained. Of course people only register it as "6x500 potency with a 30% damage buff", I just felt HW"s triple cleave felt more impactfull and less of a restrain to build and manage. The 100 gauge is a double edged sword, as it does not allow you to pool, it forces you to and as War's DPS is so burst windows dependant. I would have prefered as requiescat is, a second sustained burst windows bringing some fresh air into the mix.

Ogcd are cool, but untill now the war was a slow, hard hitting clas, with the additions of OGCD it feels less like that, beeing just a frenetic spammer once every 2 minutes while having to restrain his uses outside, doing small dumps with upheaval and onslaught.

[AziraSyuren]

DRG: Piercing Talon - the most mobile job in the game, 3 gap closers, and yet it has this crappy ranged ability that does awful damage for an insane TP cost, BUT if all your jumps are on CD and you have to leave the boss for an extended period, its useable.
PLD: Shield Bash - nothing need stunning? then its useless. Tempered Will - no knockbacks? useless.
DRK: Dark Mind - no magic damage? useless. Sole Survivor - no adds? useless. And then there's Dark Passenger.
SMN: Tri-bind!
BLM: Scathe... eh... if you gotta move for a long time and have no procs/swiftcast... maybe?

All of these classes have other unique utility that's useful in every fight no matter the context, except BLM.

WAR has nothing like that, and doesn't have the DPS gap to justify it.

That's the problem.

[SyzzleSpark]

WAR doesn't have the DPS gap to justify it.

Personal DPS is balanced by raid DPS utility. You can't balance personal DPS with raid mitigation utility, its a false equivalency and there's no reliable exchange rate between the two. Even if you have the most 1337 healers on the planet that milk a turtle PLD's utility for all its worth, that raid mitigation will still depreciate whereas DPS in any form, personal or otherwise, does the opposite. Eventually the healers will be able to DPS or even solo-heal with a man-mode PLD. If PLD had a Trick Attack, this argument would hold water. But it doesn't.

PLD having DV and Cover and Intervention is not a proper justification for a DPS gap larger than the one that already exists.
And DRK's TBN barely qualifies as mitigation utility because it is so insanely weak that in optimized groups a DRK never uses it while not tanking, outside of their opener so they can hit Delirium asap, how does one justify the DPS gap here?

If a Ford Focus and a Toyota Corolla both run but the Focus doesn't have passenger airbags, you don't fix that by putting a V8 in the Focus.

[Nhisso]

Why is this b.s. thread still active

[AziraSyuren]

Personal DPS is balanced by raid DPS utility.

Just because it is doesn't mean it should be.

You can't balance personal DPS with raid mitigation utility, its a false equivalency and there's no reliable exchange rate between the two. Even if you have the most 1337 healers on the planet that milk a turtle PLD's utility for all its worth, that raid mitigation will still depreciate whereas DPS in any form, personal or otherwise, does the opposite. Eventually the healers will be able to DPS or even solo-heal with a man-mode PLD.

PLD having DV and Cover and Intervention is not a proper justification for a DPS gap larger than the one that already exists.

Why should a tank have both the tools to make progression easier and the relative damage to make it a sure-fire pick during farm? It wasn't fair in HW and it certainly isn't fair now. The least they could do is give the other two tanks a significant higher DPS number instead of just giving them all similar DPS, but nope.

And DRK's TBN barely qualifies as mitigation utility because it is so insanely weak that in optimized groups a DRK never uses it while not tanking, outside of their opener so they can hit Delirium asap, how does one justify the DPS gap here?

You don't. DRK is the worst tank overall and the only reason there's a louder outcry about WAR is because WAR was actually ruined between 3.0 and 4.0, in both viability and fun-factor, whereas DRK was made far easier and more intuitive to play without them taking that much from it. It just has really low numbers.

This is what I mean when I say that the not-PLD tanks are both garbage.

[Aletin]

Why should a tank have both the tools to make progression easier and the relative damage to make it a sure-fire pick during farm? It wasn\\'t fair in HW and it certainly isn\\'t fair now. The least they could do is give the other two tanks a significant higher DPS number instead of just giving them all similar DPS, but nope.

I hope you realize that if Drk did more DPS than Pld also then during farms Pld would be excluded and only useful for prog, as Paladin utility is all defensive, which is not at all needed, just helpful. And farming phases out defensive utility for more dps which would fall onto Drk and War.

One tank is always left out.

Myself personally, believe that War and Pld are okay balance wise, with Drk lacking another cooldown for Auto Attacks and a slight bit of DPS.
Once this is made up the tanks will be balanced, probably phasing out Pld again as people will bring the highest DPS jobs.

[Umbeliel]

I hope you realize that if Drk did more DPS than Pld also then during farms Pld would be excluded and only useful for prog, as Paladin utility is all defensive, which is not at all needed, just helpful. And farming phases out defensive utility for more dps which would fall onto Drk and War.

One tank is always left out.

Myself personally, believe that War and Pld are okay balance wise, with Drk lacking another cooldown for Auto Attacks and a slight bit of DPS.
Once this is made up the tanks will be balanced, probably phasing out Pld again as people will bring the highest DPS jobs.

The ideal we're aiming for is that all of the three have at least roughly equal usefulness in different scenarios. Frankly, drk/war being better for farm and pld/not pld for prog would be perfectly fine, but as it stands it's just pld/not pld in both cases. Both Warrior and Dark Knight need to bring something that Paladin does not have.

[Aletin]

The ideal we're aiming for is that all of the three have at least roughly equal usefulness in different scenarios. Frankly, drk/war being better for farm and pld/not pld for prog would be perfectly fine, but as it stands it's just pld/not pld in both cases. Both Warrior and Dark Knight need to bring something that Paladin does not have.

Except really, unless you play all 3 to exactly the same capacity (which is near impossible btw) you will do more in the job you play better on, because of how close they are at this point in time. A 90th Percentile Drk will beat a 80th Percentile Pld or War.
Fun and Skill >>>>> Job power
That's how this game was designed and how it exists for all jobs.

[AziraSyuren]

Pld would be excluded and only useful for prog

One tank is always left out.

Why does DRK have to be the red-headed stepchild that's only ever optimal when one of the alternatives isn't?

Except really, unless you play all 3 to exactly the same capacity (which is near impossible btw) you will do more in the job you play better on, because of how close they are at this point in time. A 90th Percentile Drk will beat a 80th Percentile Pld or War.
Fun and Skill >>>>> Job power
That's how this game was designed and how it exists for all jobs.

I don't want to feel inferior just because I play what I enjoy.
And no, it's not nearly impossible. I do it just fine.