Paladin too overpowered, nerf their damage output!

[AziraSyuren]

Hi there. Not sure what's got you riled up, but leave the ad homs and weasel words out of it. I'll happily debate you on the content of your arguments, rather than the rhetorical fluff.

I'm mad because both non-Paladin tanks have been gutted, and seeing someone say they're okay in any way makes me upset, because it's flat-out wrong.

stuff about utility

It's less about having disadvantages and more about the fact that these utilities are useful in so few situations that they might as well not exist. That's what I want from utility- something I can commonly use. Not something I can use in one in a million situations. It's not worthwhile if you can only use it once or twice a patch. Cover, Divine Veil, and TBN can be used in many different situations in almost every fight. Shake it Off has few such uses, and (almost) none in Savage. It's not real utility. It's a meaningless gimmick. You can't point to one or two occasions where WAR's utility is useful and say the class is balanced when the aforementioned skills are useful in almost every fight. You can commonly use the utility of the other two jobs to maximize your output, whereas you're more or less stuck with nothing more than a blue DPS who can take hits as WAR.

You seem to think the fact that this utility exists is good enough. It's not.

[Umbeliel]

snip snip snippo

I don't have anything to actually add here, since I've more or less given up on getting through to people who don't seem to realize that it's a pretty far from perfect situation for non-Paladins, but you're a champ and I'm in total agreement. There's not actually a whole lot of room for argument here- the only objective benefit of a Warrior or a Dark Knight bring over Paladin is literally just the fact that they're a tank and not a Paladin for LB generation. They have different playstyles, but both Warrior and Dark Knight are majorly lacking on... anything but the barebones ability to tank.

Don't nerf Paladin though. Paladin is fine.

[Lyth]

WAR hasn't been gutted. Resource generation is faster than HW. The gauge is bigger, allowing you to bank double the resources. Storm's Eye has been lengthened by 10 seconds, allowing you to do a 1:2 rotation comfortably and allowing you to fit a Berserk inside it without reapplying the buff mid-window. Defensive buffs have been uncoupled from Berserk, and the pacification penalty has been removed. The actual Berserk rotations themselves have been mostly reduced to Fell Cleave spam. Unchained and IR are free, where Unchained would have previously have cost you 5 stacks (50 gauge). WAR gained access to Rampart. I would have been in agreement with you if this were 4.01, where there was still a resource cost attached to stance dancing (although DRK had, and still has costs attached to stance usage). But for all the dev interviews leading into SB stating that "WAR is too flexible, so we need to tone them back some to bring balance to the tanks", none of those changes actually ended up sticking. The main difference from HW is that WAR isn't completely uncontested for the top spot, due in part to a significant PLD overhaul. Nerfing PLD's dps, as this thread demands, would very quickly change this for the worse.

While DRK has its share of issues, I don't think it's unfixable, and some degree of change was required. The parry mechanics never really fit the job, and WAR has the best parry ability in the game anyways (along with a parry buff on their tank stance, oddly enough). I think that a change in identity was in order. The focus on resource management was a good choice. The problem is that we've gone from being a job with high sustained dps and low burst to offering something more in the middle ground, but Delirium doesn't have enough of an impact on our burst to compensate. Likewise, the idea of tying in resource management to mitigation is fine, but when you're already at a dps disadvantage, spending resources/potency on an essential mitigation cooldown sets you back even further. This isn't about giving out vague "buffs": there are some very specific things that you can improve to make the performance results similar, without requiring a massive overhaul. I've detailed these in the rework thread. Change is needed, but it's still extremely fun to play.

I've said this before, but people keep throwing around the word "utility" without specifying what they mean by it. If it's raid mitigation, both DV and PoA together make PLD important defensively in prog, but individually, they're on 120 second recasts. I think it wouldn't really have been an issue if they'd done something different with DV, but that's just me. But we don't need every tank running around with a DV clone; that defeats the purpose of making Reprisal cross-role. If it's single target shielding like Intervention, that you're talking about, you'd probably have to crop back WAR's defensive cooldown set first, as it's the tank with the most personal mitigation by a sizeable amount. I can't think of anything else that you can copy over that hasn't already been done. WAR got a gap closer, knockback negation, an oGCD personal esuna, an additional 300 potency oGCD that is more potency efficient than Fell Cleave, and a whole lot more burst. What, were there not enough toys under the tree this time around? Hang on to your receipts, it's time to cash them in for something even better. If we can even figure out what "better" actually is.

Before you talk about "real utility", let's start by specifying what you actually want. Preferably in terms that offer greater clarity than "all the toys!"

[AziraSyuren]

Before you talk about "real utility", let's start by specifying what you actually want. Preferably in terms that offer greater clarity than "all the toys!"

I want abilities that have multiple different uses in many different encounters outside of explicitly catered fight design that are useful when both learning and optimizing a fight.

[SyzzleSpark]

Every job in the game is saddled with abilities like this that are situational and don't necessarily boost your DPS, your mitigation, do your dishes and make pancakes.

DRG: Piercing Talon - the most mobile job in the game, 3 gap closers, and yet it has this crappy ranged ability that does awful damage for an insane TP cost, BUT if all your jumps are on CD and you have to leave the boss for an extended period, its useable.
PLD: Shield Bash - nothing need stunning? then its useless. Tempered Will - no knockbacks? useless.
DRK: Dark Mind - no magic damage? useless. Sole Survivor - no adds? useless. And then there's Dark Passenger.
SMN: Tri-bind!
BLM: Scathe... eh... if you gotta move for a long time and have no procs/swiftcast... maybe?
WAR: Shake it Off!
...And these are just the jobs that I've played at 60-70.

Idk where people get this entitled mindset that every last one of their abilities must have multiple effects and never ever be situational or make you think about how you can make use of it. Everything needn't have 3 different additional effects, a 4 paragraph tooltip and be completely idiot-proof and benefit you no matter what the situation.

Shake it off is pretty bad, yeah, but the degree of RAGE over this ability merely existing is so petulant and silly when every job in the game as abilties that aren't particularly useful in high-end content or are very situational, and Shake it Off getting added to a job that frankly didn't need much more over what it already had, to me, doesn't warrant a chorus of Simple Plan's "Untitled" and rivers of tears.

[MauvaisOeil]

Every job in the game is saddled with abilities like this that are situational and don't necessarily boost your DPS, your mitigation, do your dishes and make pancakes.

DRG: Piercing Talon - the most mobile job in the game, 3 gap closers, and yet it has this crappy ranged ability that does awful damage for an insane TP cost, BUT if all your jumps are on CD and you have to leave the boss for an extended period, its useable.
PLD: Shield Bash - nothing need stunning? then its useless. Tempered Will - no knockbacks? useless.
DRK: Dark Mind - no magic damage? useless. Sole Survivor - no adds? useless. And then there's Dark Passenger.
SMN: Tri-bind!
BLM: Scathe... eh... if you gotta move for a long time and have no procs/swiftcast... maybe?
WAR: Shake it Off!
...And these are just the jobs that I've played at 60-70.

Idk where people get this entitled mindset that every last one of their abilities must have multiple effects and never ever be situational or make you think about how you can make use of it. Everything needn't have 3 different additional effects, a 4 paragraph tooltip and be completely idiot-proof and benefit you no matter what the situation.

Shake it off is pretty bad, yeah, but the degree of RAGE over this ability merely existing is so petulant and silly when every job in the game as abilties that aren't particularly useful in high-end content or are very situational, and Shake it Off getting added to a job that frankly didn't need much more over what it already had, to me, doesn't warrant a chorus of Simple Plan's "Untitled" and rivers of tears.

Because new abilities are awaited as something exciting or at least usefull. Most people don't care about ARR old skills that are here since the beginning of the game when you got a whopping bag of abilities throught levelling to 50. Some of them remain useless, it's true, but they didn't feel negatively impactfull because they were flooded in a lot of other good things.

Here you have 10 more levels with only a few abilities (4 for warriors, more or less depending of the job), and one of them is utter shit. Not something "situationnal", but real shit. Of course a cleanse COULD be something cool, if the game design with tied about critical debuffs you can remove. But every relevant content has critical debufs untied to being "not cleansable".

This ability would have been a 40ish skill not one would care, because there was so much new skills despite of this.

Most job have new elements of gameplay due to the new expansion skills. It is the case for the PLD with requiescat and holy spirit and it's good for them. It is the case with TBN for DRK and it should feel good, but we've lost some things on the way to obtain this and it makes the skill less appealing due to this (I still enjoy the mechanic, but quite not that it's almost all the tankyness I have)

IR has some new impact but they fell lackluster, as spamming FC doesn"t bring "that much dps". It's cool, but it could have been less of a spammy spam badly brained. Of course people only register it as "6x500 potency with a 30% damage buff", I just felt HW"s triple cleave felt more impactfull and less of a restrain to build and manage. The 100 gauge is a double edged sword, as it does not allow you to pool, it forces you to and as War's DPS is so burst windows dependant. I would have prefered as requiescat is, a second sustained burst windows bringing some fresh air into the mix.

Ogcd are cool, but untill now the war was a slow, hard hitting clas, with the additions of OGCD it feels less like that, beeing just a frenetic spammer once every 2 minutes while having to restrain his uses outside, doing small dumps with upheaval and onslaught.

[AziraSyuren]

DRG: Piercing Talon - the most mobile job in the game, 3 gap closers, and yet it has this crappy ranged ability that does awful damage for an insane TP cost, BUT if all your jumps are on CD and you have to leave the boss for an extended period, its useable.
PLD: Shield Bash - nothing need stunning? then its useless. Tempered Will - no knockbacks? useless.
DRK: Dark Mind - no magic damage? useless. Sole Survivor - no adds? useless. And then there's Dark Passenger.
SMN: Tri-bind!
BLM: Scathe... eh... if you gotta move for a long time and have no procs/swiftcast... maybe?

All of these classes have other unique utility that's useful in every fight no matter the context, except BLM.

WAR has nothing like that, and doesn't have the DPS gap to justify it.

That's the problem.

[SyzzleSpark]

WAR doesn't have the DPS gap to justify it.

Personal DPS is balanced by raid DPS utility. You can't balance personal DPS with raid mitigation utility, its a false equivalency and there's no reliable exchange rate between the two. Even if you have the most 1337 healers on the planet that milk a turtle PLD's utility for all its worth, that raid mitigation will still depreciate whereas DPS in any form, personal or otherwise, does the opposite. Eventually the healers will be able to DPS or even solo-heal with a man-mode PLD. If PLD had a Trick Attack, this argument would hold water. But it doesn't.

PLD having DV and Cover and Intervention is not a proper justification for a DPS gap larger than the one that already exists.
And DRK's TBN barely qualifies as mitigation utility because it is so insanely weak that in optimized groups a DRK never uses it while not tanking, outside of their opener so they can hit Delirium asap, how does one justify the DPS gap here?

If a Ford Focus and a Toyota Corolla both run but the Focus doesn't have passenger airbags, you don't fix that by putting a V8 in the Focus.

[Crater]

Before you talk about "real utility", let's start by specifying what you actually want. Preferably in terms that offer greater clarity than "all the toys!"

Maybe the better starting point would be "What are you willing to give up for that utility?"

I know that when I play PLD I'm pretty much categorically thinking "I really wish that I had Vengeance instead of Passage of Arms". Maybe they'd like that to be the other way around.

[Pileus_Storm]

PLD isn't overpowered. Most players don't understand how the attributes affect the weaponskills because they ignore the definition of the attributes or just plain old misiterpret the meaning. If you understand the jobs you would know that all of them are fundamentally different. PLD is a defensive job. WRR is offensive with less defensive skills but it's offense is it's defense. DRK is in idea offense is the defense. PLD(easy), WRR(intermediate), DRK(advanced). You have to know how to use your job skills to be good at either. Ppl contrate so much on knowing the fight that they suck at the job. If they had not loaded the new gear wit DET ppl would not know how strong the PLD is but because ppl suck at he other two jobs they come to think the PLD is overpowered. PLD highes potency is 400. Compard to the WRR's 500 potency and DRK 650 potency the PLD is still lacking imo.