SCH adlo and succor

[Silver-Strider]

Indom + Succor = 800 pot for 2280 mana + 1 GCD's (plus whatever fairy gives you)

Medica + assize + medica = 900 pot for 3360 mana + 2 GCD's

Which one would you honestly rather prefer?

Assize completely negates the cost of the 1st medica and does 300 potency damage to boot, so in actuality

Indom + Succor for 800 potency for 2280 + 1 GCD (plus fairy)
Medica + Assize + Medica = 900 potency + 300 damage for 1680 MP +2 GCD

[Dracan_Fontom]

I prefer that one that is actually good aka White mage.

[technole]

A) People are still learning the class....
B) Not everyone plays the same way....
C) Fairy abilities are clunky....

Scholar really doesn't play that much differently , it's mainly been reeled-in from it's overpowered MP management, and it's free healing when it was always clearly #1 in that area among all healers since the job ever came out. That was also why minimum PIE builds were always considered best-in-slot. Making a relic? Absolutely no PIE in that weapon. The job could get away with practically almost no gear having PIE in Creator Savage, and still put up powerful HPS and DPS provided your raid parties were not error-prone. So even not being the slightest bit optimal, you'd get away with it or just add PIE somewhere for traps/messy parties. Aetherflow going from 20% to 10% now makes a little more aware of using the correct skills for the situation. But like some posters have also eluded to, you only need enough MP to "always be casting". I've had to train my bards previously that I didn't need mana song even when it looked like I'm super low of MP.

Practically going back to ARR it was Embrace/Whispering Dawn doing all the dungeon healing. Double/triple pulling a heavy dungeon pack in 4.0 in a 310 sync dungeon you'll have to play it using all your skills, but they gave us Fey Union which is really super-sayan for even the heaviest dungeon pulls and constant tank raid damage in the game. Which you didn't mention, and requires only aggressive Aetherflow build-up. It's once again, free. Oh you can pop Rouse+Whispering Dawn to get another tank regen before you pop Miss Super Sayan tether. That's two powerful regens, and now you got more Aetherflow in-case they dip into emergency range while you DPS down the trash. Easy game.

There are a few threads in this forum to explain and help force the fairy to stop what she is doing to do things like Whispering Dawn. Even Sustain had a purpose because she would immediately stop healing someone to heal herself. Most of the time that wasn't necessary as a Scholar because the most she probably had was a tank cleave and she lived through it without any more damage coming. But to say clunky fairy is about akin to saying Benediction going off on a dead player. It hasn't stopped anyone from playing pet jobs.

[Vyriah]

SCH don't need MP management, they had aether flow.

They trade their main ressource for a more restrictive but more powerful secondary one. It's not being OP, it's something that just plain work. Weak on demand spells vs stronger three every minute abilities. And for that, they didn't need piety and it was fine. They had their own BiS, their own playstyle.
What overpowered could even mean, seriously ? Did people make team of 8 SCH of slaughtered the game ? No, they didn't. SCH/AST was more optimised for standard composition fast run of fght you already now. That's it.

Was SCH mandatory to the game ? No it wasn't. Was bringing SCH to a party made the content significantly easier ? No it didn't. Every thing else is on the player base mentality.

Can't you get a clue about the fact that some people would kick WHM from parties for the exact reason you kick posting on that thread pop new way to spite on other SCH.
Just give it rest, you're not even making any sense.

[Silver-Strider]

Snip.

The difference between HW SCH and SB SCH is that SCH was nerfed on several fronts. Aetherflow being cut in half, the increase in cost to Adlo and Succor, and the fairy potency nerf are all factors that come into play here. As you just said, Embrace/Whispering Dawn was doing all the healing back in the day but as of now, that is NOT the case. You cannot let the fairy do everything and actually have to be more attentive of your playstyle, be more mindful of you MP, etc or else things will go south fast. I didn't mention any fairy ability, Fey Union included, because it has a long wind up time and needs to be built up to be used. It's clunky to use, which is the general point of my 3rd point. Not saying it's stopping people from playing pet classes, I'm saying it's stopping them from playing them EFFECTIVELY.

[Dregenfox]

Assize completely negates the cost of the 1st medica and does 300 potency damage to boot, so in actuality

Indom + Succor for 800 potency for 2280 + 1 GCD (plus fairy)
Medica + Assize + Medica = 900 potency + 300 damage for 1680 MP +2 GCD

Umm....you don't even know how the healers work.

The mp regain for SCH is on Aetherflow, while it's on assize for WHM. SCH has already gained that mana earlier beforehand.

If you really insist on taking our 10% mana regen skills into account -

Indom + Succor for 800 potency for 600 MP + 1 GCD (plus fairy)
Medica + Assize + Medica = 900 potency + 300 damage for 1680 MP +2 GCD

On top of that, WHM is pressured to use Assize on CD or lose mp, which may or may not conincide with when the party actually needs Assize for healing, while SCH gets aetherflow every 30-45s and can use it without penalty while saving indom for greatest impact.

[Supersun]

Double/triple pulling a heavy dungeon pack in 4.0 in a 310 sync dungeon you'll have to play it using all your skills, but they gave us Fey Union which is really super-sayan for even the heaviest dungeon pulls and constant tank raid damage in the game. Which you didn't mention, and requires only aggressive Aetherflow build-up. It's once again, free. Oh you can pop Rouse+Whispering Dawn to get another tank regen before you pop Miss Super Sayan tether. That's two powerful regens, and now you got more Aetherflow in-case they dip into emergency range while you DPS down the trash. Easy game.

So if you are overgeared it works.

Yet, not everyone is overgeared, and classes shouldn't be built needing to be overgeared in mind.

I got a late start on SB so I'm only about i300 atm. Just using Whispering Dawn, Tether, and Aetherflow skills is definitely not enough to keep the tank alive during big pulls. Some Aldo spam is required.

And this is kind of the point. Scholar is fine so long as the healing requirements the job needs to do falls within their threshold of free healing. Scholar's free healing threshold is definitely a ton higher than every other healer (largely because of Whispering Dawn). Once you need to heal more than your free healing provides though it gets messy. In raids this is covered because the other healer covers that gap. There are times though that the Scholar himself needs to heal more than his free healing provides (usually due to bad players), and when this happens Scholar becomes trash tier where as the other 2 healers would be absolutely fine in the same spot.

Should Scholar's MP healing be as efficient as the other 2 classes? Of course not. I understand that because of how much free healing scholar has that their MP efficiency should be lower than the other two...but not by THIS much. I mean 50% higher costs, lower MP regen, and lower potency than White Mage? The difference in free healing between the jobs isn't THAT big (it's mainly whispering dawn, everything else Scholar has there's an equivalent).

[Silver-Strider]

Snip.

I'm not taking anything into account other than what was provided in your example, which was heavily bias towards SCH. Assize is outlined in your example and the MP return of it should be taken into consideration because of it, whereas Aetherflow could have been used prior to the fight and could result in 0 MP return as a result; we don't know because it's not mentioned in the example at all.

Assize and Aetherflow need to be kept on CD for the EXACT same reason (you lose MP if you don't) so this is a strawman argument.

Please don't insult my intelligence.

[Dregenfox]

I'm not taking anything into account other than what was provided in your example, which was heavily bias towards SCH. Assize is outlined in your example and the MP return of it should be taken into consideration because of it, whereas Aetherflow could have been used prior to the fight and could result in 0 MP return as a result; we don't know because it's not mentioned in the example at all.

Assize and Aetherflow need to be kept on CD for the EXACT same reason (you lose MP if you don't) so this is a strawman argument.

Please don't insult my intelligence.

Still seems like you're not getting it...Indom for SCH requires a stack of Aetherflow, which can only be gained by using the skill Aetherflow (only exception is dissipation). The 10% mana part is tacked onto both classes and is required to use either Assize or Indom. Exactly when that mana gain happens doesn't really matter.

The SCH loses nothing by keeping AF on cooldown because he can E-drain any remaining stacks and be back at 3 stacks again with no impact on indom usage. For a WHM to come close to matching that they need 3x lilies and need to use Assize the moment it comes off CD, which may not be the moment your party needs the aoe healing.

This is why it doesn't make sense to factor in the mana gain. It's completely arbitrary and can be discussed in favor of this or that situation forever.

[Silver-Strider]

Snip

Even if we discount the MP return, Assize still does more upfront damage than SCH can dish out in 1 GCD so regardless of the situation, WHM would still pull ahead but we've derailed the thread long enough so I say we just agree to disagree.