Let's "flesh out" role actions

[Reynhart]

Provoke - for WAR
Convalescence - for DRK
Awareness - for WAR

So, basically, while most role skills are past native PLD skills, they would all be better now for something other than PLD ?

[Quor]

So, basically, while most role skills are past native PLD skills, they would all be better now for something other than PLD ?

Skills lost:
WAR - Bloodbath, Fracture, Foresight, Mercy Stroke, Brutal Swing
DRK - Reprisal, Scourge, Delirium (combo), Shadowskin, Low Blow, Dark Dance
PLD - "Rampart," "Conv," "Provoke," "Awareness"

Skills that can be reclaimed via role actions:
WAR - 0-1, if you count Rampart as a much better Foresight
DRK - 3ish. Reprisal (heavily nerfed), Delirium (as buff with 120s CD, not combo), Shadowskin (as Rampart), Dark Dance (as Anticipation)
PLD - all of them.

I have more buttons to push on my PLD at 66 then I do on my WAR at 70, and that's counting the "double up" from IB/SC and FC/Deci.

Let's be honest, most people on this forum have played all 3 tanks extensively at 60, and if they're not already at 70 with all 3, then they're on their way. Quit it with this intra-tank rivalry BS. Have the balls to actually propose an idea for criticism instead of just throwing out completely unjustified thinly-veiled PLD butthurt.

I'mma say no to specific job bonuses. They just need to be better as a baseline so there's actual choice.

See, she disagrees with me, and I disagree with her. I think my idea is great, but I also think what she's saying has merit. I proposed my idea because it seems like SE just cannot see the forest before the trees when it comes to the role actions (and really, WAR/DRK in general). And also because I enjoy discussion with my fellow tanks.

[Reynhart]

Skills lost:
WAR - Bloodbath, Fracture, Foresight, Mercy Stroke, Brutal Swing
DRK - Reprisal, Scourge, Delirium (combo), Shadowskin, Low Blow, Dark Dance
PLD - "Rampart," "Conv," "Provoke," "Awareness"

PLD also lost Foresight, Bloodbath and Mercy Stroke in case you remember something called cross-class back then.

And, as far as I know, more buttons have nothing to do with how well a job performs. You realize that, if DRK was able to put a continuous -10% damage, like you suggest, it would only make it the new mandatory tank for progression and the best tank for raidwide mitigation miles above WAR and PLD, right ?

Have the balls to actually propose an idea for criticism instead of just throwing out completely unjustified thinly-veiled PLD butthurt.

I would have if your idea was not just a disguised "Give us back what we lost" for WAR and DRK. Bloodbath is gone, accept it and move on. And frankly, with the current Dark Arts, you wouldn't spend a single one of it on an Evasion boost, so anticipation is Dark Dance.

On top of that, I should point out that role skills are especially made to be shared skills within a role, so they should not carry any job's identity.

[Quor]

PLD also lost Foresight, Bloodbath and Mercy Stroke in case you remember something called cross-class back then.

Dp you always condescend to people who suggest original ideas, or are you crushing on me? Of course I remember. PLD has self-sustain w/o Bloodbath. WAR has none, unless they feel like sitting in Defiance the whole time (and no, SP combo's don't make up for anything). So I certainly don't feel the loss of BB on my PLD, nor do I feel the loss of Foresight (even with PLD's natively higher def due to shield Foresight was still trash). Mercy Stroke was a solid addition to WAR, and something PLD/DRK used maybe twice in a boss fight. Whatever PLD lost from Mercy Stroke they more than made up for with the addition of Requiescat and Holy Spirit. WAR gained more dmg with Upheaval and Onslaught, but again lost sustain because a 40s CD Mercy Stroke meant it was up for every other solo fight, and useable with enough frequency in 4-mans that you could get some nice clutch healing with it.

But this is all beside the main point; PLD has absolutely nothing to complain about. They came out of SB glowing like the sun. They're in a great place where they are now, with both functionality and fun. WAR and DRK are functional, and certainly have moments of fun, but it's nothing like it used to be in HW, and nothing close to what it's like playing PLD.

And, as far as I know, more buttons have nothing to do with how well a job performs. You realize that, if DRK was able to put a continuous -10% damage, like you suggest, it would only make it the new mandatory tank for progression and the best tank for raidwide mitigation miles above WAR and PLD, right ?

More buttons means more options. FFS DRK has, for all intents and purposes, a single combo. WAR and PLD at least have two they use regularly. You should also re-read my initial post; nowhere did I say the -10% damage would be "continuous" as in "up 100% of the time." The continuous was intended as an analogy for "back-to-back" in this specific instance. Hence why it would be tied to the Anticipation CD, meaning you could only get a double Reprsial if you blew Anticipation to reset the Reprisal CD.

I would have if your idea was not just a disguised "Give us back what we lost" for WAR and DRK. Bloodbath is gone, accept it and move on. And frankly, with the current Dark Arts, you wouldn't spend a single one of it on an Evasion boost, so anticipation is Dark Dance.

As great and fun as 8-mans are, 4-mans are still a big part of this game, and something I miss on my DRK is that wonderful DA+DP+DA+DD evasion tanking you can do, becoming near-immortal against a horde of your enemies. Maybe it's not the min/max way to play things, but it sure as hell was fun.

You know fun right? Haven't forgot it? This idea of "we have to balance the entire game around 8-man savage OR ELSE" needs to die already. Of course, the better question to ask is why do you insist on WAR and DRK being second class tanks when it comes to complexity and playstyle?

Hi OP +1ing you. A solid idea~

I don't care how we get it, please give Warrior and Dark Knight more identity and utility and flexibility.

Ty, that was the general idea. Something, anything, to make things more interesting. On PLD it feels like I have an answer for everything. On my WAR, the only answers I have are to take damage and to deal it. If someone is low and I'm on my PLD, I have an answer for that. If someone needs a bit more dmg reduction to tank a raid-wide, I have an answer for that (well, four actually). On my WAR, in any situation that doesn't involve holding aggro or dealing damage, my answer is "hope the healers can adjust."

[Reynhart]

So I certainly don't feel the loss of BB on my PLD

Now that PLD finally has an AoE skill, I can say I miss BB now more than ever.

WAR gained more dmg with Upheaval and Onslaught, but again lost sustain because a 40s CD Mercy Stroke meant it was up for every other solo fight, and useable with enough frequency in 4-mans that you could get some nice clutch healing with it.

The increased potency and frequency on Inner Beast compensate easily for what you lost on Mercy Stroke.

WAR and DRK are functional, and certainly have moments of fun, but it's nothing like it used to be in HW, and nothing close to what it's like playing PLD.

No, because "like it used to be in HW" was not balanced at all. Like I said, your idea is only to bring back what was removed which was one of the reason why PLD was trash compared to DRK and WAR.

Maybe it's not the min/max way to play things, but it sure as hell was fun.

You still need to remove some options if you don't want too many abilities to use. Considering you can tank packs with DA+AB, having a second option for that same situation is redundant.

On my WAR, in any situation that doesn't involve holding aggro or dealing damage, my answer is "hope the healers can adjust."

If you only "hope the healers can adjust" when you need to survive, then you're probably doing something wrong with your WAR.

If you really want to count these you'd have to count them on DRK losses too.

Sure, DRK also lost them. And yes, it counts, because it was skills that were frequently used. Like the OP said, it was "options" for PLD and DRK too. And, as a reminder, Stoneskin was also a very important option on PLD. It's funny that DRK is now the tank who can put a 10% HP shield on someone else...

[Freyyy]

PLD also lost Foresight, Bloodbath and Mercy Stroke in case you remember something called cross-class back then.

Are you serious with that ?

If you really want to count these you'd have to count them on DRK losses too. You'd also want to count Internal Release and Second Wind for WAR. But it doesn't count. Bloodbath, Foresight and Mercy Stroke were MRD skills, WAR lost them. Not PLD.

As for OP, I don't think that it would be a good idea. It would force role actions for certain jobs when we already have mandatory ones (at least as tanks). It would leave even less room for choice in the end IMO. At this point they could also just give up on the cross-role stuff and give only individual skills for every job.