Healer & Tank DPS (WoW vs FFXIV)

[Newmanxeno]

Can someone explain how healing in WoW is? Is it like literally just spamming some sort of cure button?
I really like the challenge of trying to dps and heal, it makes things feel faster.

[loreleidiangelo]

Can someone explain how healing in WoW is? Is it like literally just spamming some sort of cure button?
I really like the challenge of trying to dps and heal, it makes things feel faster.

I'll give you an example using one of WoW's best-designed healing classes, IMO - the Restoration Druid.

Restoration Druids are basically a pure healing-over-time healer with only one "burst" AOE heal on a whopping 3-minute CD. They are 100% the epitome of "World of Warcraft" healing in a lot of ways - unadulterated sustain heals with very little room for screw-ups and tons of ways to run your mana into the dirt if you're not careful.

Their basic kit consists of:

-Rejuvenation: Their bread and butter, a basic HoT of decent strength. Think WHM's Regen, but that's about as derp as the similarities between jobs go. This HoT should be rolling on everyone in your assigned heal group any time they take damage.

Regrowth: Another HoT that stacks with Rejuv, but has a small front-loaded heal attached to it. Aspected Benefic is similar in design. You will want this maintained on the main tank as much as you can, but its a bit expensive to use on DPS/in an AOE scenario.

Lifebloom: A fun and unique spell. Lifebloom is another small HoT, but when the duration on it expires it "blooms" for a moderate burst of HP. This is another "main tank" HoT, as you can only have one Lifebloom up at a time. It's a powerful heal, but pretty costly and it's very easy to overheal with if you don't have a good sense of the timing. XIV could use more "skill cap" heals like that, IMO.

Wild Growth: Very mana-intensive HoT that hits in a small area. The HoT starts out initially very strong but tapers down over time. Druid's best "answer" to AOE burst healing, but isn't nearly as good as what some other healers can do.

Efflorescence: A ground HoT a la Asylum, but on a short CD so intended to be used frequently. Only affects 8 people of your 20-man raid so the Druid will need to prioritize dropping it in a spot where it will be most effective.

Healing Touch: Resto Druid's only direct heal outside of Tranq. No CD, so can be spammed, but relatively weak and nowhere near as efficient as good HoT upkeep.

Tranquility: About as good as Indom, but on a 3-minute cooldown instead of 30 seconds (it's also a channel and also costs mana). In WoW terms though, it's actually one of the most powerful healer CDs in the game, so let that sink in lol.


So yes, a typical raid in WoW would play out with your healers mostly being assigned "groups" (since AOE heals don't just hit everyone in range, they have caps from anywhere to 5-8 players) and utilizing their basic heals to sustain said groups, while sometimes pitching in with healing the MT (or OT if he has adds). Cooldowns like Tranquility DO hit the entire raid, so they're coordinated and alternated between healers as responses to heavy damage phases, kinda like how healers do in XIV now. You have to be SUPER careful not to spam, because you only get 1 mana pot to use per raid attempt and it restores something like a tenth of your mana at most levels.

So say the raid takes some pretty moderate damage. You have to decide "how" to heal those players up from it. Is there a threat of more damage following, or is your group at critical levels of HP? You can't just blitz with Tranq because you're assigned to use it in 60 seconds and the whole raid is counting on you. So do you have time to put Rejuvenations on your team and have them stack for Efflorescence? Or do they need HP fast (or can't stack because of mechs), so you're forced to sack Wild Growth, Efflorescence on as many people as CAN stack AND targeted Regrowths on the rest, costing a good chunk of mana? Will you still need to spot-heal with Healing Touch after that? Don't forget to keep Rejuv and Lifebloom up on the MT while this is all happening, too! It's not like he magically stops taking damage while the boss lets you take a tea break.

This same scenario in XIV? Just Indom it, Med II it or Helios it, it's fine. Your HP can be dangerously low cuz you know the boss won't raid buster for another 30 seconds, and the tank just used Hallowed to give you some breathing room. It's entirely different in this game compared to WoW: mana is near infinite, your cooldowns are super powerful and short, and instead of regens being an entire class's gimmick like it is in Warcraft pretty much every healer has access to them here, as WELL AS big burst heals and "oh crap" buttons.

You might find it boring - there are some on these forums who have played WoW and say that they do. But I think the skill floor for healing is way higher there, it's way more engaging even at the casual level, and you're penalized for overhealing/being a spammy hog unlike here where the best you get for overhealing is a gentle chide from your team to please do DPS in downtime. They also somehow manage to maintain this level of balance while still having their healing jobs feel unique, which honestly isn't something I can say about FFXIV sadly.

[RichardButte]

They also somehow manage to maintain this level of balance while still having their healing jobs feel unique, which honestly isn't something I can say about FFXIV sadly.

Quoted for emphasis.

XIV's healers all feel like the same basic healer but with a gimmick added on (fairy pet, cards).

[Freyyy]

XIV's healers all feel like the same basic healer but with a gimmick added on (fairy pet, cards).

Honestly tanks feel quite like that too in XIV. All the same basic tank with a gimmick added, every tank has % damage reduction CDs, a tank stance that is virtually the same (25% max HP roughly equals 20% mitigation), an agro combo, damage combos, a ranged agro move, some AoE damage/agro moves, some damaging oGCDs, damage steroids (Zerk, IR, FoF, Requiescat, Blood Weapon, Delirium), an invuln, a big "nuke" skill (Fell Cleave, Holy Spirit, Bloodspiller), some kind of self-healing, and some kind of on-demand short mitigation (TBN, IB, Sheltron). They only differ by their gimmicky mechanics which are mostly about the way they are DPSing (WAR having very bursty phases once every 2mins, PLD alterning between magical nuke phase and regular physical damage combos, DRK using MP and Blood to basically manually increase their potency-per-GCD instead of having steroids). They don't really feel unique when compared to each other. They could honestly all branch off from the same starting class. SE doesn't really like to take risks in order to create something truly unique, whether it be new content, or new jobs.

But I still really like tanking in this game, and I really like the tank/healer DPS meta. I've tanked in every trinity-based MMO I've played, and I really enjoy being able to dish out respectable damage while tanking efficiently. I don't want it to change.

[Shurrikhan]

Tanks should be complimented for staying in TANK role and holding aggro too. I don't get the constant insistence on tanks doing the DPS job, regardless of the balance requirement that tank dps be within a certain percentage of dps dps.

But why "stay" in tank stance when you can survive just fine, at greater gains typically to your own DPS than available to your healer, after having already gotten plenty of aggro? To butter your "role" with a smattering of misplaced pride while actually contributing less?

Not to mention you didn't understand what I was talking about. In a MMO where tank dps is neglictible, all the "I solo the entire game" thing doesn't exist. Tanks can't really kill mobs alone, dps get killed if they try, etc.

How is it more fun to need a near perfect allotment of healers or a bulwark of non-DPS just to get the simplest of things done? By all means, make that case for stronger mobs. (As it is already, in many a FATE or A-rank...) But why should I need a healer and a tank to kill dire-mite?

Forcing players to cooperate because of painfully restrictive parameters does not make the overworld fun. Overworld designs that allow for creative cooperation does. And the funny thing about that... those things tend to work better without ripping out or neglecting prior mechanics (e.g. the near-complete removal of CC in dungeon content at 50+, leaving systems such as melee range detection on moving targets or pet responsiveness at dark age levels, etc.) and inflating mob damage and passive role distinction to force trinities on people.

[Shurrikhan]

You might find it boring - there are some on these forums who have played WoW and say that they do. But I think the skill floor for healing is way higher there, it's way more engaging even at the casual level, and you're penalized for overhealing/being a spammy hog unlike here where the best you get for overhealing is a gentle chide from your team to please do DPS in downtime. They also somehow manage to maintain this level of balance while still having their healing jobs feel unique, which honestly isn't something I can say about FFXIV sadly.

Tangential:
My favorite fight I'd ever healed was actually T1 when first released, and not just because of how much damage was going out, but the varying rates to self, party, and tanks. I was on WHM, and of course mana was a fair bit tighter back then. Not to mention my Bard was rarely standing in range, and my SCH was panicking and contributing little more than the occasional Physic and Adloquiem before one of the tank's TBs... This left me with barely enough time to DoT, certainly no real time to fill with Stone II. I'm trying my best to proc Freecures in preparation for the TBs, with Regen ticking to top off while I Stoneskin, timing those to within the Overcure window so I can blow the raid back to full HP in one go, rolling Medica IIs out to catch the full raid minus the far side tank (all melee on my side), trying to keep the tanks alive while squeezing in enough healing to keep the poison-squatters up, etc., etc. There was a plethora of windows and rates to the damage taken, and the general intensity was enough to make each feel urgent.

I've rarely had that feeling since, apart from a min ilvl solo heal on Titan Ex. Even Savage modes just haven't quite had that kind of spread of damage rates and overall intensity. I really miss that.

Specific:
I actually feel like many WoW healers have homogenized further, however. With the exception of Discipline, the trimming of less raid effective tools has left many healers there feeling same-ish. Consider when Holy Light was actually the more expensive option, for its ridiculously massive healing, for a simplest example. Now it just works in the same basic heal Option A triple-cost-for-double-speed Option B has any other. Others used to be intended not only for more sustained damage, but for more sustained (longer) fights in general, with some gearing towards Spirit and others towards Intellect. That was problematic in its own right, but disappearance of that kind of variance is too.

As a collective, they're still head and shoulders above our own diversity, but even the best extant examples may not be any pinnacles of the concept at this point. I do wish SE would look at both sides of that progression, then, noting what more pragmatic changes occurred and why, along with the classes' original promise.

[Nicodemus_Mercy]

But why "stay" in tank stance when you can survive just fine, at greater gains typically to your own DPS than available to your healer, after having already gotten plenty of aggro? To butter your "role" with a smattering of misplaced pride while actually contributing less?

While what I am about to say may not always be the case, consider that turning off tank stance might mean you're making your healer have to work harder to keep you alive and thus may well be reducing their own dps contribution for an overall net gain of zero, just to improve your own personal dps.

[HyoMinPark]

Don't blame the healer or tanks to cover up your shortcomings as a DPS.

While a DPS performing suboptimally is most definitely at fault with regards to their low numbers, and definitely needs to work on self-optimization and self-improvement, a healer that sits at 0.00 DPS and minimum HPS for a particular fight does not have much room to talk, boast, or point fingers. While DPS certainly should not be playing poorly/sub-optimally, neither should healers. This is not to say that you are doing this, but I've noticed a trend with anti-DPS healers who seem to be perfectly fine with placing all the blame on others while they themselves are only playing at 50% potential, at best.

No one in this thread is advocating at all for healers to neglect their primary duty (healing) in favor of a secondary duty (DPSing). People that are pro-healer DPS merely ask the healers remain active at all times during a fight (no emote spam or jumping around or alt-tabbing to Netflix) and to contribute fully and as much as they can to a group, especially when in a Savage raid setting, where every little bit counts. Especially early on in tiers when groups do not vastly outgear the content. Very few abilities in this game would be considered useless. Stone/Aero/Malefic/Combust/Bio/Miasma/Broil do not fall in this category. Healers were given tools and there is absolutely nothing in this game that dictates they be use purely during solo instances. Even the Hall of the Novice states that healers can weave in offensive spells between heals or if there is not much healing currently needed. I think that people just want others to play optimally and to use their entire kit. Just like these healers that are so quick to point out errors on parts of tanks (not using CDs) or DPS (shoddy rotations) about how they are not using their entire kit, healers are not immune from such scrutiny either. If you want to dish it out, be willing to take it.

On that note, I have never encountered a party that openly harassed and ridiculed a healer that did not DPS. While they may be mumbling under their breath on the other side of the screen, I've never seen people outright curse or act hostile towards non-DPSing healers, and I do sometimes wonder how grossly exaggerated claims of "insults and harassment and ridicule" are. Not to say there aren't cases; I'm sure there are. But how prevalent are they? Are they commonplace? Or outliers?

Generally speaking, when I party with people, I expect each and every one of them to contribute to their absolute fullest when it comes to content. Exceptions and allowances can, of course, be made to those who are new to content. But in static settings, raid progression settings, or farm party settings, I expect 110% from everyone, and I myself give 110%. If the group fails to clear or fails to meet enrage, I feel like the burden is something that is shared, not something that is the fault of a particular individual or group. Unless there is an extreme outlier (e.g., a DPS doing 1200 DPS when they should be doing double or triple of that for there level, ilvl, and the content; tank that is using NO defensive cooldowns; healer that is either DPSing too much, or overhealing to the point of resource exhaustion), the burden and responsibility of clearing falls on the group as a whole. Progression and success hinders on the entire group, not just a specific set of individuals.

While I've never been a fan of WoW, and FFXIV is the second MMO I have played seriously/for an extended amount of time, my mindset extends to both games. If I did play WoW, I would still expect 110% from everyone in a serious progression group.

[Kacho_Nacho]

At the risk of sounding blunt, I think that has very little to do with it. I think the "tank and healer DPS meta" abomination we see in this game mostly arises from a few key factors:
*snip*

Interesting analysis!

My take is that the designers don't think we are all noobs. They think the new players are new players. So, they made all the roles easy to learn at the beginning.

Understandably, this has made things too easy for the more experienced players. But, I have to side with SE on this point. Do we really want to see new players get overly frustrated with healing and tanking in the early part of the game?

Now, as far as damage dealt to the party/raid, a big factor is the long global cool down. Everything happens in 2.5 second increments which leads to these feast or famine moments. Not much can be done without changing standard global cool down.

As far as fully scripted encounters, isn't that true for every MMO? Every fight is scripted and a big part of the learning curve is in figuring out the script and how to respond to it.

Can this be fixed? Sure! Just have to add some RNG to what attacks the boss or mob uses. Let the bad guys mix it up a little.

[Remedi]

As far as fully scripted encounters, isn't that true for every MMO? Every fight is scripted and a big part of the learning curve is in figuring out the script and how to respond to it.

Wow bosses are not as much scripted bosses there usually use skills when their Cds is up (some have a 10 sec timer of when they decide to use skills)
also they have much less mechanics x phases then FF14
Bosses here are puzzles or dance if you will, you need to figure out how it work and then you are good to go
on wow most of the time it's a question of numbers and how few healers you can manage a boss fight.

that is one of the reason why the end game raiding of the 2 games is very different and shouldn't be compared as much as ppl do