Idea for MCH

[Xygoz]

Hi,
I am wondering sometimes... Did people even notice that in 4.05, Hot Shot was buffed from 5% to 8% Only. There Is a Reason Why the increase was so small.
As a savage raider, I can tell you that Machinist's DPS can Already beat Bard's DPS (I have myself done 3900 DPS as Machinist without any Dragoon's debuff or AST's balance in Deltascape V1.0 (Savage)).
As for the Overheat; Yes, it is worth it. People just don't do the maths properly. Actually you don't even need to do the maths to see it. Just go hit a SSS Dummy and go overheat. While overheating, all my Wildfire are over 13k with very low crit and I very often get 15k ish.
Cooldown in the meantime, is simply the only skill that can reduce your heat. Slug Shot is Always better...
Believe me or not, Machinist is totally fine right now..
All we miss, is 15seconds to use procs... like Summoner has 30seconds for Ruin IV...

Give me some time and I will be posting a guide for Machinist.

I do love when people say things like a class is fine and don't provide any parses, logs or even the math that says its fine. I was half expecting a GIT GUD somewhere in this post lol.

[MomoOG]

I do love when people say things like a class is fine and don't provide any parses, logs or even the math that says its fine. I was half expecting a GIT GUD somewhere in this post lol.

That's what these "MCH defender" posts ultimately boil down to. People trying to passively/indirectly garner attention for amazing a MCH they think they are

The math has been done. MCH has room to improve to be on equal with other dps. No one cares about anecdotal experiences.

[Fannah]

MomoOG, can we get a link to those maths please? I wish they were linked everytime someone speak about it. I never saw them. I believe you for the final idea, it's just that I wish I could read them to see the problem better by myself.

I just would like those maths to stop being a legend and be here on this official forum. And if they already are, please spread the news.

[Xygoz]

take 10 mins of looking on reddit or these forums and you will find people who have compared overheat to not overheat lol

oh look here is a thread created recently http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...e-my-findings.

took less then 10 mins to find this one xD

[Elnidfse]

MomoOG, can we get a link to those maths please? I wish they were linked everytime someone speak about it. I never saw them. I believe you for the final idea, it's just that I wish I could read them to see the problem better by myself.

I just would like those maths to stop being a legend and be here on this official forum. And if they already are, please spread the news.

Remember this thread talking about rDPS. (which I haven't edit to say that crit isn't like dhit and suffers no DR)
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...lly-give/page2

There's also Leticro's therad for wildfire theory and the entire thread:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...e-my-findings.

and the location where I used to reference my math:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...6%9C%9B/page86

and the relevant image from that thread


Epiher's great thread with gorilla math that got turned into legit math
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...05-MCH-is-Weak

and for giggles we'll toss in aiuri's excellent guide and rotation showcase
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...RkOqjCNw/edit#
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEUmppCNpXY

FFLogs aren't showing relevant information right now so as soon as that gets fixed up people can have conversations using voluntary provided. As a temporary stand in here's some information over one week on content I'm pretty sure nobody does anymore that does absolutely nothing to help a narrative but I wanted to post anyways.


I mean this is on this website alone. My own spreadsheets are inaccurate as heck and are put together with gorilla glue but I use those for my own reference and don't claim those are gospel. Not when there are plenty of other people who are much better than I that have put their thoughts of the matter down in very easy and accessible ways.
From my own experiences. I can pull decently in savage but my execution sometimes leave a lot to be desired. I parse on the V3S+ dummies constantly for the sake of self reference. That however is useless. What is useful is the dialogue MCH have with each other. If people want to claim math or rotations wrong, they must provide evidence to the contrary.

[Fannah]

Xygoz : Well, thank you, but I've already read it (you can even see I've posted in it, was maybe less than one minute to check after finding the post ). I've already done the maths myself a while on this forum, before that post, but I know people don't take mine as reference, so of course I don't ask for mines, I'm just looking for the mathematician people believe in.

It would be nice of you to be less condescendant with things like "take 10 min [...] lol" especially when you can't find in 1 min I already posted in this topic (and you should have found the topic you linked me in like 30sec, it's still on the page 1...). I know how to use search function (not even needed to look for a recent 4.05 post). Of course, Reddit is not the answer I'm looking for as I asked for something here on this forum, ignoring reddit on purpose (I like reddit, nothing against it, but it's kinda a chaotic place, every topic at the same place, I dislike the order comments have according to likes, and I would like to don't have to use reddit when we have a great forum here where people not in the game can't post themselves).

By the way, it's very nice of Leti Cro to made what he did, but to make it short, I am not fan of his post. And people talked about maths before him. So I was wondering who is that person.

On top of that, someone else gave me a link to a japanese mathematician (thx again Elnidfse, btw^^) and this guy found a 8 potency difference while I had like 100+ potency. As long as someone don't show me how my maths are wrong, I think I shouldn't give credit to someone who found a smaller result than mine as it means his rotation is less adapted to the overheat system than mine. Except if he proves I'm wrong of course. (and I compared with the best combo both can make)

Edit : Erf Elnidfse, you were too quick to me Can't even go take a coffee xD Thx btw for the original topic !
Edit 2 (after reading you) : btw, Eipher even has quoted me in his original post So i'm aware of it ^^ I didn't think he was one of the reference of it, he admitted he did no calculation as he was too lazy to really make it x)
I actually had them all, even Aiuri ^^" Just not the original japanese topic and fflog^^" I definitely should start to use it, maybe.
Edit 3 : "If people want to claim math or rotations wrong, they must provide evidence to the contrary. " +100

[Xygoz]

As long as someone don't show me how my maths are wrong, I think I shouldn't give credit to someone who found a smaller result than mine as it means his rotation is less adapted to the overheat system than mine. Except if he proves I'm wrong of course. (and I compared with the best combo both can make)

and your calling me condescending? lol this made me laugh pretty hard.
To be honest I'm just tired of seeing people fighting over what is pretty clear, mch Still needs work from the devs. Instead of these thread devolving into pointless epeen contests Lets talk about what we can fix and change to help the class overall.

[Fannah]

When you are openly offensive to someone, don't expect this person to be nice, don't attack me for being disrespectful when you are not respectful to me without reason.

I never was insulting or condescendant to those other people, because unlike you, I don't come to tell them how dumb they are (while you found a topic in 1rst page in "less than 10min") as I show respect to those people trying to help others. I admit I said it wrong if you think I meant I just look at the result and don't care. I actually meant I still read what they did, how they did it, and that I won't take their results in the end as they are actually lower than mines, so less efficient. And of course if they prove why my calculations are wrong or unpractical in real fights, I will understand and rethink the whole thing. We are talking about maths, not litterature or ideas.

If I give you a rotation and you do a 3200 dps with it, and that you do yours and get 3600 dps, you won't keep mine in mind as it will be irrelevant for you, isn't it? You still won't become condescendant for picking yours.

Edit : There are already tons of topics about how to improve the class overall, don't worry the forum is full of ideas already and you can still keep posting about them, so we can still talk about the overheat and how much it has to be upgraded on other ones. I also am in the side of overheat is not enough/underwhelming, there was no fight, don't try to shift what I'm saying, don't make up stories. I just asked to look at the calculations to see how bad it is according to the community just to know if we talk about the same need of improvement. Which was normal, and you had to come and be like "lol, use search function".

Edit 2 : Btw, I just realize that you just answered me twice, and twice you just looked for being annoying to me for whatever reason, you don't even try to be calm as I'm doing. You look like this guy at high school playing it like "yo mama" just to be right. But maybe you actually are in high school (no offense if it's the case).

[Xygoz]

If I give you a rotation and you do a 3200 dps with it, and that you do yours and get 3600 dps, you won't keep mine in mind as it will irrelevant for you, isn't it?



In a discussion about a class and how viable it is if you are saying you are pushing higher dps then what the majority of people are then it falls on "you" to prove you are truly doing these numbers. So to answer your question no its not irrelevant. When people come into a topic that is trying to improve something and a hand full of people come in and say "As a savage raider, I can tell you that Machinist's DPS can Already beat Bard's DPS (I have myself done 3900 DPS as Machinist without any Dragoon's debuff or AST's balance in Deltascape V1.0 (Savage))." But provide no other info it is pointless.

[Fannah]

Xygoz, I've just reread the post you linked me (don't worry Leti Cro it's not against you) :

1) He changed a 255 potency in 355 for his calculation in the middle of the Wildfire + overheat rotation (see google sheet in D-8).
2) He put 6 GCD in his Wildfire rotation instead of 5. I'm wondering how, and he doesn't speak about his Skill speed and/or technique to explain it and it's not for nothing people speak about the combo "Cooldown-3-2-3-Cooldown" (so only 5 GCD).
3) In K-16 "availible" (I'm kidding I don't mind about it, but if you want to update it Leti Cro, feel free to )
4) In D-16 he said Slug Shot + Gauss Barrel + Barrel Stabilizer give a total of 400 potency instead of 200.
5) In H9, numbers with so many decimals like 871,5196875 are irrelevant, it only can make people who dislike numbers but are still interested in the topic to run away. We talk about potency where a single point doesn't change that much, so 871.52 was way enough to still give decimals.
6) He didn't put the Hot Shot multiplier in his calculation, which mislead to see the total potency given by Overheat, but he said he did it on purpose and thought we would just put it ourselves. It's ok to do so, but it's not really helping for average people to get an accurate number as I guess average people won't bother adding the +8% by themselves to see the difference.
7) In D-3, he changed a 190 potency in 390 potency. So I guess he forgot to write he was doing a Gauss Round right before his Split shot, so he should add a note about why he counts it this way in the "Note" part he made.

There might have other mistakes, but you should not hesitate to read a post before sending one with maths errors in it (especially the 6GCD in Wildfire + the 355 potency ones).

Edit :

In a discussion about a class and how viable it is if you are saying you are pushing higher dps then what the majority of people are then it falls on "you" to prove you are truly doing these numbers. So to answer your question no its not irrelevant. When people come into a topic that is trying to improve something and a hand full of people come in and say "As a savage raider, I can tell you that Machinist's DPS can Already beat Bard's DPS (I have myself done 3900 DPS as Machinist without any Dragoon's debuff or AST's balance in Deltascape V1.0 (Savage))." But provide no other info it is pointless.

Ah, I didn't say I push so much higher dps that mine is relevant and not others. If you actually read the other topics I reacted to (I'm not saying you should, there is nothing wrong to didn't see them, it's ok), I just said I found like 100+ potency when some like the japanese one found only 8 potency. 100+ is still very small and need improvement. I believe you thought I said it was ok as I think it's not. I'm not either with those saying "once in raid I did XXXX potency higher than the average, so it's actually ok". I agree there are a lot of data to take in count etc. And one person who once did higher than average is nice to know in a way, but I agree it's still irrelevant on an overall balance topic.

About what I think about other have to prove me wrong, I don't mean they have to come to me to speak with me directly as if I mattered especially, I was actually doing a reference about another topic where I gave my results and Elnidfse just gave me his link with the 8 bonus potency without commenting my result at all, like if what I've wrote and calculate was just irrelevant and that I should just stick to another one and forget all of my own calculation to follow one who had a lower result than what I found. Maybe he felt just lazy to compare on the moment, it's ok, but it was still kinda frustrating to got such answer like if he didn't read what I wrote.

Anyway, we agree the machinist needs improvements. Peace.