4.05 crafting disappointment

[Caimie_Tsukino]

This thread has polarizing views.

Certainly. Sometimes, I do get emotional!

- ARR was about RNG. Even if you were the best crafter you could still lose if RNG didn't favor you. That is not skill based at all.

Please do not ever say this again, EVER! Because this is DEAD WRONG, and it spreads like a zombie virus to the younger crafters!

Just because the RNG dictates the final outcome, it doesn't mean something is not skill-based. For instance, in an RTS game, a very skillful player could still lose because he got unlucky... She/he scouted nearly the entire map, but still missed a spot which the opponent very luckily made use of, and proxy-built an army there. When the skillful player saw the way is clear, she/he moved out of her/his own base towards the opponent's base. But by luck, the opponent launched an attack just when the skillful player was halfway across the map. The end-result is, the skillful player lost nearly the entire base at home, while she/he is just reaching the entrance of the opponent. This is really just unlucky, and it almost dictates the outcome. But can you say that the game is "NOT SKILL-BASED"? The skillful player scouted thoroughly while the opponent didn't. She/he was just play unlucky that put her/him into a huge disadvantage. But a truly skillful player will know how to react, and does her/his best to mend the situation... Sometimes even have to put all eggs in one basket, and gamble on something risky at that point. THAT is decision-making, and it's a skill.

Similarly, in ARR, it was designed so that players need to make use of Good procs to mend failed Hasty Touches. You can't expect every Hasty to work every time. It is very common to fail 20-25% of them. If you have only 9 Hasty Touches to use in your rotation, but you need to reach IQ10 to HQ an item, you certainly can't just pray for all Hastys to succeed. Instead, you will have to be skillful enough to take Good procs appropriately to make it to IQ10 despite all those failed Hastys along the way. A skilled crafter would have taken the 20% failure rate of Hasty Touches into consideration, and will be able to make use of Good procs for suitable mending methods. Of course, RNG ultimately dictates the outcome. If 7 Hastys failed, there's not very much one can do. But that does NOT mean the crafting game is "NOT SKILL-BASED".

The fact that Good and Excellent conditions can pop any time makes the crafting game interesting, and also separates the skillful from the unskillful. Some people may think certain procs cannot be utilized, while the more skillful crafters may be able to make use of them anyway. Sure, at the end, someone with more procs will more likely succeed. So again RNG dictates the outcome. But think this way, you and I use the same RNG. In the long run, we'll have approximately the same amount of failed Hasties and same amount of Good procs. If I can make use of more procs than you do, and be smarter about how to utilize the extra CP gained, I will have the upper hand... I will HQ more items than you do... and I will be the "better crafter". Oh yes, the crafting game is skill-based... very much, since ARR time!

The fact that I feel BORED these days, is because I can just macro everything. When you use macros to do things, you don't make decisions on the spot. You don't get creative about the extra CP you gained along the way. Macros don't know how to "gamble" to mend a dire situation. Macros won't suddenly throw down a Waste Not, and pump naked Hasties to try reach a higher IQ stack. Macros won't skip a Steady Hand so there's more CP to pump out an Innovation to help push quality higher. When we use macros, the "skills" involved are not those mentioned up there anymore. The "skills" involved are more mathematical skills and rotation design skills. That can still be fun, but just not as fun.

Cleanse, please don't misunderstand, I am NOT picking on you! I would apologize in advance if I would make you feel that way. I actually agree with the majority of the things you say in your post up there! Your suggestions up there with tier is totally cool, and I like it too. It's just that first sentence of yours that I have to pinpoint and deny. I can't let that wrong idea spread to new players! And sometimes, having a bit more RNG may not be a bad thing, cos it would actually require more skills!

[Caimie_Tsukino]

maybe because it was something you was supposed to work on over time not speed towards so you had everything asap and the items are expensive for that same reason.

I think someone mentioned this before, the amount of mats that would be "turned in" (as a product) could have been sold instead. So instead of seeing them as "FREE" because you gathered them, you could see them as a money "SURPLUS". Now by turning them in for scrips, you actually lose that surplus. So yeah, "just as expensive" as melds anyway. Because you would just lose millions of gil that could have been in your pocket from all that gathering work.

[Driavna]

Please do not ever say this again, EVER! Because this is DEAD WRONG, and it spreads like a zombie virus to the younger crafters!

I don't agree with you, during ARR RNG was the most important factor. Sure you as a crafted can do all in your power to increase your chances but at the end of the day, you were at the mercy of the RNG.

Just like pen a paper RPG games or games like Warhammer 40K/Fantasy, no matter how much time you put behind all your strategy, if you are unlucky with dices is GL HF for you.

In fact, one common complaint during ARR was RNG (for crafting and melding).

[Caimie_Tsukino]

I don't agree with you, during ARR RNG was the most important factor. Sure you as a crafted can do all in your power to increase your chances but at the end of the day, you were at the mercy of the RNG.

Just like pen a paper RPG games or games like Warhammer 40K/Fantasy, no matter how much time you put behind all your strategy, if you are unlucky with dices is GL HF for you.

In fact, one common complaint during ARR was RNG (for crafting and melding).

Of course, luck is the most important factor. I did say RNG dictates the ultimate outcome. But that doesn't mean crafting (including ARR crafting) is not skill-based. Do you need me to give you another example? How about a tennis game? Or a football game? Ultimately luck dictates everything, right? If you're unlucky, then you're going to fail anyway. Does it mean those are not skill-based games?

People complained about RNG for a lot of reasons. I complain about RNG a lot too! But you gotta know there's a large crowd out there who just don't understand the skills behind crafting. The notion that "RNG dictates everything, therefore it is not skill-based" does not apply here with crafting in this game. It would have applied, if our crafting was to press one button, and we just wait for the outcome to be dictated by RNG. But that's certainly not the case here. In ARR, the game was designed so that you will very likely fail a few of those Hasty Touches. People who are skill-less will blame the RNG for failing them. "Oh, that person HQ more than me because he/she got lucky." "Oh, that person HQ more than me because he/she has better stats." "Oh, if I just get luckier with a streak of successful Hasty Touches, that would make me a better crafter than the other guys." No, my friend. That's not how it works!

Let's put it this way, when the difficulty of a crafted item is really, really high, then someone who's going to follow through a rigid rotation (or just press one or two macro buttons) will definitely HQ a lot less than someone who's manual crafting flexibly. Isn't that a solid prove that this is skill-based?

Maybe ultimately, your HQ rate for 3000 items is 60% and my HQ rate is only 30%. So at the end, we'll both complain about the RNG. But it also strongly indicates that you're a better crafter. You have more skills, correct? Yeah, RNG dictates the outcome. Still, skills are involved.

[kenventa]

I don't agree with you, during ARR RNG was the most important factor.

Sure RNG may ef you up. And doing crafts with macro with that amount of RNG wont increase you chances to HQ. That where skills come in handy. Able to manage these RNG and respond to them smartly to make your chances higher.

[Driavna]

I already pointed this out before: crafting is a math problem, once you know how to solve it you are done (no matter how complex the problem is). RNG is flux and since there is no time limit you can even take your time to do numbers again. I'm not saying there are no math skills involved in solving the problem, but during ARR you have to rely on something totally out of your control to the point that at times the problem cannot be solved, that makes the system look more complex than it was.

Also, veterans get better and more info is available than before, PvE faces a similar problem.

Sure SE can increase the difficulty by upping stat requirement and put everyone to the mercy of a really hardcore melding (need 3 grade 6 and 2 grade 5), they can also come up with more complex conditions and procs that force players to make quick decisions, like a time limit to make a quality/difficulty increase of 3 seconds tied to another that if you increase one stat the other is halved. Another thing they can do is leaving omni-gear as leveling gear so for high-end crafting you need to craft and penta-meld gear for each DoL/DoH.

My point is: you can increase all the outside factor to create a fake difficulty (and some players would love it) but one thing is the problem itself and another is all the flux around it. Just think about all the challenges humanity faced before building something, but once all is figured it out it becomes "trivial" and it will be perfected over time.

[Cleanse]

RNG wasn't there to jeopardize the craft but to randomize it. Forcing the crafter to make certain decision to manage the procs and fails. Its fun, exciting compared to sitting your ass AFK-ing and pushing 2 buttons to craft 100% HQ all the time except then getting poor on byregots.

I am not sure about fun and exciting when you aren't blessed by our lord and savior Byregot some days.

Please do not ever say this again, EVER! Because this is DEAD WRONG, and it spreads like a zombie virus to the younger crafters!

First off dudes, I am on your side. Macro'ing is monotonous, I agree. However, it took skill to test and optimize the initial rotation.

@Caimie, your analogy was definitely skewed... let's be fair. A player not scouting properly is not random. All the scouting they did do would show that the enemy base looked thin on units/buildings and give said player a hint that something fishy was up. Starcraft was great because of how little RNG it did have. A better analogy on randomness would have been Hearthstone.

My statement might have been over the top in saying ARR took no skill, but that's not literally what I meant. I didn't convey my point properly to both you and @kenventa, so apologies...

The point I was trying to make is that creating more RNG is not the right solution to fixing the current state of crafting. It would be a bandaid fix to appease few and deter many.

The current mechanics in the crafting system are very basic and the amount of tools we have to play with make said system overly simple. If they really want to make crafting fun, and not like WoW where your only challenge is getting the materials, they would need to add a new layer of depth. I am unsure if numbers tuning on abilities would be enough as then it would become who can shove the most materia into their gear.

Edit: Driavna above me (#post4325290) made the point I wanted to make. Well spoken.

[kenventa]

I am not sure about fun and exciting when you aren't blessed by our lord and savior Byregot some days..

Yeah cos macro-ing is way more fun.

We are not saying ARR is perfect but its fun COMPARED to what it has become. There's challenge and its not monotonous. Idk about you, but i enjoy the challenge RNG provides. Its not unfair, IMO. One just have to learn to accept that 99% is not 100%.

Also let me correct the misconception that you are implying with RNG. RNG goes both ways, sometime you're lucky and sometimes you're not. You can get 5 hasty unsuccessful but Byregot may bless you with Excellent proc after Great Strides to make everything better. |Bandaid fix is still a fix though. It doesnt make things perfect yet, but at least better than what we have now.

I already pointed this out before: crafting is a math problem

We'll it has become like that after ARR. But it doesn't mean it should be as easy as that.

[Driavna]

We'll it has become like that after ARR. But it doesn't mean it should be as easy as that.

Was always like that, crafting is pure math.

[kensatsu]

There a concept i don't understand : Craft is skill based.
You mean craft was rng and now the rng is over.
You get the formula you can craft. thats all.
The only thing changed is : before SB there was RNG, in SB RNG is over.
And now crafter complain because they love random missing craft.
For me i craft since ARR high level craft, and i don't care, i see craft in FFXIV as an interesting system, but to me RNG don't involve skill, craft is not about skill at all. its just like some crafters say there, a Math. Once you know how to do it you are fine to craft whatever you want.