Thread: 4.05 crafting disappointment

The Eorzea database right here on the lodestone and FFXIVDB also can list for what recipes an item uses. I believe Gamer Escape wiki does as well, but being as it's user-contributed the lists tend to be incomplete.

On the subject of the master books, and crafting in general, I'm a little disappointed as well. I wanted dyeable WoD gear for sure, but first of all, WHERE IS THE LOTA GEAR SE COME OOOONNNNNNNN and secondly, it just no longer feels rewarding to put in the work to getting to end game and melding. It's a long long grind to get all your crafters and gatherers to 70, and then another to get all that materia, but it hardly feels worth it. I'm still holding out hope for a set of more difficult crafts to actually make this work pay off, but I doubt we're going to be seeing it, and if we do, it won't be for a long time yet.

Originally Posted by Elamys

It's a long long grind to get all your crafters and gatherers to 70, and then another to get all that materia, but it hardly feels worth it. I'm still holding out hope for a set of more difficult crafts to actually make this work pay off, but I doubt we're going to be seeing it, and if we do, it won't be for a long time yet.

Exactly my Mind.

When I got all Books and used the Culinarian Book and it said 3 Recipes unlocked I was like "Whaaaaat?!".
Not like in Hell I gonna share a Market with hundreds of Players being Culinarian and you got less to choose from, because one of those 3 Food Recipes, no all are being bloated on the Marketboard.

Next time maybe give us 1 Recipe each Master Book, Dear Developement Team, or whoever made that Decision, ...

All you people complaining about lack of recipes - did you actually play HW at launch? The first "crafting" patch sucked 100x WORSE than this one unless you really liked the favor system and only enjoyed selling crafting/gathering gear to other crafters/gatherers- the battle gear was HORRIBLE (it was ilvl 160, remember? lower than even the basic unlimited tome gear and only a few pieces even existed not entire sets.) I also don't recall any relevant glamour being added either (Sky Pirate was *much later* and the Thavnarian stuff already existed from the start) - oh, and the food recipes were very limited/kinda bad too (the added many months later 3-4 star recipes made up for it though.) I think people forget that most of the decent recipes from HW did not exist at this point in the expansion.

Originally Posted by Ayerinn

All you people complaining about lack of recipes - did you actually play HW at launch? The first "crafting" patch sucked 100x WORSE than this one unless you really liked the favor system and only enjoyed selling crafting/gathering gear to other crafters/gatherers- the battle gear was HORRIBLE (it was ilvl 160, remember? lower than even the basic unlimited tome gear and only a few pieces even existed not entire sets.) I also don't recall any relevant glamour being added either (Sky Pirate was *much later* and the Thavnarian stuff already existed from the start) - oh, and the food recipes were very limited/kinda bad too (the added many months later 3-4 star recipes made up for it though.) I think people forget that most of the decent recipes from HW did not exist at this point in the expansion.

I certainly did not forget that. It was horrible back then. Now it is pretty terrible. So, I'm still disappointed.

This thread has polarizing views.

- ARR was about RNG. Even if you were the best crafter you could still lose if RNG didn't favor you. That is not skill based at all.
- HW was about optimized rotations, aka using Rath's rotation or one of the Muscle Memory rotations. You could macro due to the optimization, which you guys feel is no skill. Hasty Touch RNG or full best in slot gear was the only thing from making things worry free.
- Stormblood is going the same route as HW, but with the abundance of CP we have and new abilities that are 100% success under SH2, it's even 'easier'. With all the tools (http://ffxiv-beta.lokyst.net/#/simulator) and resources (these forums, Caimie's guides etc) we have, figuring out the best rotation is happening and spreading on day one of a patch. The only thing we have to worry about here is how much we can afford to meld and if we can find a rotation that will win with the stats we have. I see lots of 'no food', 'cheap food', 'specialist' etc rotations (the era of tailor made rotations?).

There's not much talk about what would make things better or more interactive (more RNG - like ARR is not the way to go).

My suggestion would be to create unique puzzles per 'tier' of difficulty. The 1353 tier, 1205 tier, 431 tier etc.

If you want HQ items you will need to solve the puzzle. You could gamble and create a lot of items in one craft, but you risk losing (or NQ'ing) all the mats if you lose the puzzle. This 'gambling' would be for master crafters who know that tier's puzzle strategy and can craft their items quickly in batches. Macros will not work for HQ.

For speeds sake, normal crafts can ignore the mini game and you can focus on progress only. Full normal mats means the puzzle will be tougher.

Originally Posted by Cleanse

This thread has polarizing views.

Certainly. Sometimes, I do get emotional!

Originally Posted by Cleanse

- ARR was about RNG. Even if you were the best crafter you could still lose if RNG didn't favor you. That is not skill based at all.

Please do not ever say this again, EVER! Because this is DEAD WRONG, and it spreads like a zombie virus to the younger crafters!

Just because the RNG dictates the final outcome, it doesn't mean something is not skill-based. For instance, in an RTS game, a very skillful player could still lose because he got unlucky... She/he scouted nearly the entire map, but still missed a spot which the opponent very luckily made use of, and proxy-built an army there. When the skillful player saw the way is clear, she/he moved out of her/his own base towards the opponent's base. But by luck, the opponent launched an attack just when the skillful player was halfway across the map. The end-result is, the skillful player lost nearly the entire base at home, while she/he is just reaching the entrance of the opponent. This is really just unlucky, and it almost dictates the outcome. But can you say that the game is "NOT SKILL-BASED"? The skillful player scouted thoroughly while the opponent didn't. She/he was just play unlucky that put her/him into a huge disadvantage. But a truly skillful player will know how to react, and does her/his best to mend the situation... Sometimes even have to put all eggs in one basket, and gamble on something risky at that point. THAT is decision-making, and it's a skill.

Similarly, in ARR, it was designed so that players need to make use of Good procs to mend failed Hasty Touches. You can't expect every Hasty to work every time. It is very common to fail 20-25% of them. If you have only 9 Hasty Touches to use in your rotation, but you need to reach IQ10 to HQ an item, you certainly can't just pray for all Hastys to succeed. Instead, you will have to be skillful enough to take Good procs appropriately to make it to IQ10 despite all those failed Hastys along the way. A skilled crafter would have taken the 20% failure rate of Hasty Touches into consideration, and will be able to make use of Good procs for suitable mending methods. Of course, RNG ultimately dictates the outcome. If 7 Hastys failed, there's not very much one can do. But that does NOT mean the crafting game is "NOT SKILL-BASED".

The fact that Good and Excellent conditions can pop any time makes the crafting game interesting, and also separates the skillful from the unskillful. Some people may think certain procs cannot be utilized, while the more skillful crafters may be able to make use of them anyway. Sure, at the end, someone with more procs will more likely succeed. So again RNG dictates the outcome. But think this way, you and I use the same RNG. In the long run, we'll have approximately the same amount of failed Hasties and same amount of Good procs. If I can make use of more procs than you do, and be smarter about how to utilize the extra CP gained, I will have the upper hand... I will HQ more items than you do... and I will be the "better crafter". Oh yes, the crafting game is skill-based... very much, since ARR time!

The fact that I feel BORED these days, is because I can just macro everything. When you use macros to do things, you don't make decisions on the spot. You don't get creative about the extra CP you gained along the way. Macros don't know how to "gamble" to mend a dire situation. Macros won't suddenly throw down a Waste Not, and pump naked Hasties to try reach a higher IQ stack. Macros won't skip a Steady Hand so there's more CP to pump out an Innovation to help push quality higher. When we use macros, the "skills" involved are not those mentioned up there anymore. The "skills" involved are more mathematical skills and rotation design skills. That can still be fun, but just not as fun.

Cleanse, please don't misunderstand, I am NOT picking on you! I would apologize in advance if I would make you feel that way. I actually agree with the majority of the things you say in your post up there! Your suggestions up there with tier is totally cool, and I like it too. It's just that first sentence of yours that I have to pinpoint and deny. I can't let that wrong idea spread to new players! And sometimes, having a bit more RNG may not be a bad thing, cos it would actually require more skills!

Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

snip

Macro-ing has always been a thing. Mithrie has videos on 3* macro crafting from ARR days. You are severely overstating the difficulty of ARR crafts. Granted, Stormblood is considerably easier due to all the overpowered abilities, but let's not pretend macro-ing rotations hasn't been a thing. You're simply seeing more experienced crafters now who are posting more videos, which inevitably makes things easier. Slapping a bunch of RNG onto crafting wouldn't do anything more than make it infuriating, especially to the vast majority of players. The devs want crafting more accessible, not less. Are there better ways they could have gone about it than tossing us overtuned abilities? Absolutely. But I'd rather RNG not be a deciding factor.