We're getting stat allocation back in 1.20, right?

[Stufoo]

You're getting merit points as you level now, it's not the same as the old allocation system.

You will have the same baseline stats that you have now but it's going to let you specialize in the role you want to play.

Think of it like two or three free stat materias.

[Betelgeuzah]

You're getting merit points as you level now, it's not the same as the old allocation system.

I think it will be exactly the same allocation system we had before, except now it is class specific.

[Antanias]

I think it will be exactly the same allocation system we had before, except now it is class specific.

This sounds more likely

[Stufoo]

I think it will be exactly the same allocation system we had before, except now it is class specific.

It would be completely idiotic of them to switch it back, it was always an impossible to balance system. You can't have that large of a variation between possible allotments without either nullifying the effect of any +stat bonuses or invalidating the freedom of choice that you're supposedly given.

Let's look at how it used to be, with stats so wildly useless that you really didn't see a change in mitigation from 110 VIT to 174 VIT, it was just for HP purposes.

Now consider, that the game is balanced around the idea that any tank is able to survive and hold hate no matter what his stats were (which is what the allocation system was). This destroys the incentive to improve yourself through gear because nothing will ever give a noticeable effect to your "effectiveness". DDs just wore plate because it gave damage cuts they didn't care about +8 str from haub or +2 str from penance because you couldn't see it having any effect whatsoever.

Now consider, option two, that you need to have so much VIT to survive against this boss, or that monster. Why even give people the choice to mess it up? Why erase the baseline of stats and create more confusion? There's absolutely no reason to support that (which is why we have the stat system we have now). It would just end up destroying the possibility of what the class can do. Imagine a CNJ who put all of his allotment into INT because it is required to be able to nuke this monster, and is now no longer able to cure well, or a GLA/MRD who has very little VIT so he is just absolutely incapable of mitigation. It was very annoying pre-1.19 to join a party with a GLA who was a crafter so he had 0 str and 0 vit allotted so he was missing half his blocks with a scutum and had the lowest hp in the entire party. If everyone HAS to use a certain setup then just make it uniform for the class.

A baseline stat system based on level and job, combined with an additional merit system on top of it is the way to go at the moment. You know what to expect of that class at that level, at the very least they will be able to perform. You will never have a full STR/VIT GLA or PLD who just can not cure themselves at all because they have no MND or PIE. There won't be Lancers who die in one hit because they want the biggest numbers in existence and did a billion STR. A merit system will allow you to customize towards the role you want to excel in, and the baseline protects you from failing to balance yourself. If you are a DD marauder, you would go for STR, if you are a tanking MRD you'd go VIT, nuking CNJ would go INT and primarily healing CNJ would go MND. Remember, these are effectively bonuses on top of the stats they already have so they will never be able to not do something just because points aren't available. As I said, just think of this as a couple of extra stat materia bonuses.

On the same note though, you can allow gear bonuses to be more powerful. What good is Penance +2 str going to do in the old system if you could just choose, at any time you wanted, to have more str? You could choose to have 174 if you wanted and you still couldn't see a difference in your performance. It completely dwarfs the +2 str from the belt so who in the world would ever care? Now, +stats aren't so readily available and they can carry more weight so you are rewarded for getting any upgrades you can, whether through materia, gear upgrades, or this merit bonus system.

You can see the difference in physical mitigation with a single +20 VIT materia, pre-1.19 VIT did nothing at all even if you had 230 of it.

Seriously, why would you even want the old system back? It was horrible beyond belief.

[Mahayana]

blah blah blah...
...If everyone HAS to use a certain setup then just make it uniform for the class....
blah blah blah

The problem is that SE doesnt know whats good for MY job... I know whats good for my job. Example is that conj has almost 3k hp but a little over 1k mp..... that's retarded SE. I want to at least allot some of my points.

[Jennestia]

The problem is that SE doesnt know whats good for MY job... I know whats good for my job. Example is that conj has almost 3k hp but a little over 1k mp..... that's retarded SE. I want to at least allot some of my points.

Wasn't aware you produced this game and know the future plans and adjustments of this game? You do know it's essentially a work in progress right, as they've stated over and over? Especially since "what's best for your class/job" will continually change as the game is further overhauled, including patch 1.20.

It's near impossible to balance a game that supports "builds", which is why the PvE is always bad yet it works fine for PvP because that's what the "every other MMO" focuses on. While I love Ragnarok Online, we can't use that as an example of it "working well" because it's one of the most unbalanced Korean MMOs to exist.

Do we remember Crit-Sins?

Do we remember SteelColytes?

Why would there be a specific build widely used if "everything worked well"? As someone said earlier in the thread, even with absolute freedom (game balance being impossible aside), there's always that one build that becomes optimal or most sought for.

[Frein]

Oh yes it did. Ragnarök Online did it, and did it extremely well. There were indeed 1-3 builds at least for every class - and then there were god knows how many bizarre and still highly effective builds achieved through creative use of stat deployment and choice of gear, particularly gear that enabled the use of non-standard skills.

Yes, I played RO back in the day, and no, it didn't work. Many quirky builds were viable but hardly optimal and if the game had had a real end game scene, these quirky builds would not have been especially loved. RO was mostly a solo grind game so nobody really cared how you allocated your points. I didn't stick around long enough to see the organized PVP system but I'm sure it was dominated by cookie cutter builds, not battle acolytes and whatnot.

That kind of experimentation with strange builds can be fun the same way you may want to try specific strategies in a Civilization game (which is why you keep coming back to the game), but chances are you aren't really competitive if you don't follow one of the few established top tier strategies.

Why would there be a specific build widely used if "everything worked well"? As someone said earlier in the thread, even with absolute freedom (game balance being impossible aside), there's always that one build that becomes optimal or most sought for.

Exactly.

[Dreamer]

Yes, I played RO back in the day, and no, it didn't work. Many quirky builds were viable but hardly optimal and if the game had had a real end game scene, these quirky builds would not have been especially loved. RO was mostly a solo grind game so nobody really cared how you allocated your points. I didn't stick around long enough to see the organized PVP system but I'm sure it was dominated by cookie cutter builds, not battle acolytes and whatnot.

That kind of experimentation with strange builds can be fun the same way you may want to try specific strategies in a Civilization game (which is why you keep coming back to the game), but chances are you aren't really competitive if you don't follow one of the few established top tier strategies.


Exactly.

Not everyone is a min/maxer. So what if their are cookie cutter builds? I just want to have fun, and part of that for me is customizing my character as much as possible. I played a restoration druid in WoW back before the first expansion was ever announced, so I'm quite comfortable with not being 'optimal' for a given role.

[Physic]

Wasn't aware you produced this game and know the future plans and adjustments of this game? You do know it's essentially a work in progress right, as they've stated over and over? Especially since "what's best for your class/job" will continually change as the game is further overhauled, including patch 1.20.

It's near impossible to balance a game that supports "builds", which is why the PvE is always bad yet it works fine for PvP because that's what the "every other MMO" focuses on. While I love Ragnarok Online, we can't use that as an example of it "working well" because it's one of the most unbalanced Korean MMOs to exist.

Do we remember Crit-Sins?

Do we remember SteelColytes?

Why would there be a specific build widely used if "everything worked well"? As someone said earlier in the thread, even with absolute freedom (game balance being impossible aside), there's always that one build that becomes optimal or most sought for.

ehhh guildwars was pretty balanced, and it had many builds. RO did in fact have many builds, many viable for pve, dont know if it was super balanced, but there was usually at least viable builds per class, and it was more a choice of how you wanted to play, and what weakness you were willing to have.

[Kiara]

It would be completely idiotic of them to switch it back, it was always an impossible to balance system. You can't have that large of a variation between possible allotments without either nullifying the effect of any +stat bonuses or invalidating the freedom of choice that you're supposedly given.

Let's look at how it used to be, with stats so wildly useless that you really didn't see a change in mitigation from 110 VIT to 174 VIT, it was just for HP purposes.

Now consider, that the game is balanced around the idea that any tank is able to survive and hold hate no matter what his stats were (which is what the allocation system was). This destroys the incentive to improve yourself through gear because nothing will ever give a noticeable effect to your "effectiveness". DDs just wore plate because it gave damage cuts they didn't care about +8 str from haub or +2 str from penance because you couldn't see it having any effect whatsoever.

Now consider, option two, that you need to have so much VIT to survive against this boss, or that monster. Why even give people the choice to mess it up? Why erase the baseline of stats and create more confusion? There's absolutely no reason to support that (which is why we have the stat system we have now). It would just end up destroying the possibility of what the class can do. Imagine a CNJ who put all of his allotment into INT because it is required to be able to nuke this monster, and is now no longer able to cure well, or a GLA/MRD who has very little VIT so he is just absolutely incapable of mitigation. It was very annoying pre-1.19 to join a party with a GLA who was a crafter so he had 0 str and 0 vit allotted so he was missing half his blocks with a scutum and had the lowest hp in the entire party. If everyone HAS to use a certain setup then just make it uniform for the class.

A baseline stat system based on level and job, combined with an additional merit system on top of it is the way to go at the moment. You know what to expect of that class at that level, at the very least they will be able to perform. You will never have a full STR/VIT GLA or PLD who just can not cure themselves at all because they have no MND or PIE. There won't be Lancers who die in one hit because they want the biggest numbers in existence and did a billion STR. A merit system will allow you to customize towards the role you want to excel in, and the baseline protects you from failing to balance yourself. If you are a DD marauder, you would go for STR, if you are a tanking MRD you'd go VIT, nuking CNJ would go INT and primarily healing CNJ would go MND. Remember, these are effectively bonuses on top of the stats they already have so they will never be able to not do something just because points aren't available. As I said, just think of this as a couple of extra stat materia bonuses.

On the same note though, you can allow gear bonuses to be more powerful. What good is Penance +2 str going to do in the old system if you could just choose, at any time you wanted, to have more str? You could choose to have 174 if you wanted and you still couldn't see a difference in your performance. It completely dwarfs the +2 str from the belt so who in the world would ever care? Now, +stats aren't so readily available and they can carry more weight so you are rewarded for getting any upgrades you can, whether through materia, gear upgrades, or this merit bonus system.

You can see the difference in physical mitigation with a single +20 VIT materia, pre-1.19 VIT did nothing at all even if you had 230 of it.

Seriously, why would you even want the old system back? It was horrible beyond belief.

Well said Stu.

The old system (Total Stat Point Allocation) bugged me from Day 1 Launch of the game.

Think about it: If someone can shift ~200 (TWO HUNDRED) Stat Points around into STR, VIT or whatever they choose, what good is your measly, +5 STR Ring going to do for you?

The old system marginalized most Equipment and Bonuses you got. As Stu said, your Penance Belt with +2 STR was a joke compared to you shifting all your Stat Points over to STR.

The new system is a *combination* of *some* Stat Customization with our current system (where most of your Stats are shifted over for a good baseline).

That way you never have to be screwed if you were maximizing your Stats for, say, Leatherworker Crafting, and then your friends needed your help as a Conjurer (and you couldn't switch all your stats over) or then needed a Tank for another fight (where you didn't have enough time to switch all your stats over again), i.e., the old system, pre-1.19.

I want to see our Stats *mean* something again (like now), so a slight bit of customization is nice (which is what they're going for), but with most of our stats auto-shifted over.

I can't wait for 1.20 and 1.21.