Why is NIN considered OP or highly viable?

[Sam26]

Trick attack is essentially an AoE buff like Embolden, Battle Litany, and Brotherhood.

Sry but how is TA in a fight like for example A2s better than the other buffs when they buff all dmg to all adds and not only one?
Buffs always have an advantage compared to a single target debuff when you have multiple piority targets that have to die at the same time. The Value of the Buffs increase in these situations.
The Add phase in A12s is another good example for this aswell as A9s.

yes. Also nin dps tie with mnk.

Nope they don't, if you are reffering to the SSS dummy tests there are some things that aren't accounted.
1. Nin is buffed by TA while the MNK isn't, 20 sec TA uptime is huge in such a short parse with a pot/opener burst.
2. MNK doesn't have his benefit from Brotherhood which increases his dps in a Party (chakra procs).

In a realistic fight MNK would also benefit from TA, his Brotherhood (chakra from partymembers) and his overall better sustain dps.
Immo it's the only job that comes atleast a bit close to SAM while bringing Mantra and Brotherhood for the grp.

So its all based around that one sole debuff?

yes, NIN=TA which is sad in my opinion.

[Oscura]

Sry but how is TA in a fight like for example A2s better than the other buffs when they buff all dmg to all adds and not only one?
Buffs always have an advantage compared to a single target debuff when you have multiple piority targets that have to die at the same time. The Value of the Buffs increase in these situations.
The Add phase in A12s is another good example for this aswell as A9s.

Ah yes A2S. One fight of twelve. One out of twelve fights in the Alexander raid pool is the one time that Trick Attack is less valuable. That is already the massive problem with this reply. You are implying that just because TA is not useful in 1/12 fights in a raid tier, that it is not better than buffs. You are seriously telling me that because TA is useful in only 11/12 fights, it is not as good as a buff.

It is true that buffs will always contribute more when dealing with an add phase or multiple targets at once. The only problem is that the more demanding content in this game more or less comes down to hitting a single target. Add phases never last long enough to seriously deviate from the fact that Trick Attack is amazing. Even in the A12S example you listed, realistically the add phase is maybe 10% of the fight depending on your group speed. For the other 90% of the fight, TA is superior in every single way. For A9S, it's even worse. Adds die so quickly that TA can still be used on the boss basically almost always on cooldown. It is useful at every stage of that fight.

I'm sorry I didn't state that TA isn't better than buffs at certain periods, but the fact of the matter remains that if you are hitting a single target, which is the grand majority of endgame fights in this game, TA is superior. It has a lower cooldown than basically any buff in the other classes can offer. Litany (180s CD) by itself is a crit buff, which can't even compete with a flat damage buff. Embolden (120s CD) is a 10% physical only buff (which also damage bonus to caster) which decays every 4 seconds. Brotherhood (90s CD) is a 5% physical only buff which does not even apply to the caster, albeit it grants chakra stacks but let's not try to pretend that makes up for the fact it's weaker than Embolden or TA. Embolden is stronger than it in every way until 12 seconds, so for 3 seconds for its entire duration (15s) is Brotherhood better. Brotherhood's advantage is that it has a shorter CD than Embolden.

Meanwhile, Trick Attack (60s CD) buffs all types of damage, not specifically physical, and it has no decay. Please do not cherry-pick through my post.

[Sam26]

...

wow no reason to get agressive immediately I just stated that the value of buffs may vary depending on the fight. Where did I say that TA is not a good buff??? I didn't mention the value of TA in a word beside in A2s where the buffs most likely surpass it.
(My first line, the other lines where general speaking)
I said that a Buff is much more reliable as a Debuff in general because of certain situation not speaking about TA vs Litany/embolden/brotherhood beside the example with a2s. I also just said that the value of Litany/Embolden/Brotherhood increases in A12s at the Addphase and A9s so where did I mention that TA is worse in this fights?

dunno...

[Oscura]

wow no reason to get agressive immediately I just stated that the value of buffs may vary depending on the fight. Where did I say that TA is not a good buff??? I didn't mention the value of TA in a word beside in A2s where the buffs most likely surpass it.
(My first line, the other lines where general speaking)
I said that a Buff is much more reliable as a Debuff in general because of certain situation not speaking about TA vs Litany/embolden/brotherhood beside the example with a2s. I also just said that the value of Litany/Embolden/Brotherhood increases in A12s at the Addphase and A9s so where did I mention that TA is worse in this fights?

dunno...

Of course buffs have advantageous situations. I thought that was obvious. Albeit it has absolutely nothing to do with my post. My post was specifically indicating that trick attack exceeds buffs in performance in a grand majority of situations. That much is true.

[Sam26]

Of course buffs have advantageous situations. I thought that was obvious.

I wouldn't be too sure about that, I have read several posts in boards/reddit and most people didn't seem to know that there is even a difference, sad but true ._. I even saw people believing that TA is a flat 10% raiddps boost.
TA is huge no question but it's also not entirety true that it's up on CD every 60 sec. in a realistic fight because you have to actually perform a Suiton Ninjutsu to be able to cast it and also be able to hit the target from rear.
It happens that your mudra CD doesn't line up to TA CD which can result in a delay which can vary. If you wait and delay your Ninjutsu for too long it may work but result in a personal dps loss.
Then there are also mechanics that force you to delay it (like the side switching in susano when a player gets the purple mark+lightning tether)
True North helps with such situation but more then often it will be on CD due to 150s... and if you don't hit it from rear it's rip TA so you have to delay it again in terms of safety which may result in loosing one TA for the whole fight in relation to the
encounter length.
(Don't know though why they kept TA as the only skill that work that way, they changed it for DRG/MNK in the past, that you keep the buff/debuff even when you miss positional and only lose the potency)

For example, the best SAM log Susanoo:
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/k94fg...bility=1000638

The Encounter length is 7:16 , people would expect that TA was 7 times up that fight but it was 6 times due to mechanics/delays

[Galvuu]

snip

I order to make this fair, you should subtract the downtime due to cutscenes and stuff.
Sure, NIN won't TA during transitions, but no one will do anything during transitions (other than lose buffs and get pissed off), so it's irrelevant.
Downtime is like what, 30s for Susie with all the sword nonsense and then the explosion?
So the length of the fight where you're actually fighting is like 6 minutes something.
For that duration, you'd expect 6 TAs, and that log has 6 TAs.

[Tsubaki75]

TA is huge no question but it's also not entirety true that it's up on CD every 60 sec. in a realistic fight because you have to actually perform a Suiton Ninjutsu to be able to cast it and also be able to hit the target from rear.
It happens that your mudra CD doesn't line up to TA CD which can result in a delay which can vary. If you wait and delay your Ninjutsu for too long it may work but result in a personal dps loss.

The only reason to not have trick up on cd is due to a phase shift or mech where the boss leaves or becomes invulnerable. Suiton should be used 9 sec or less before trick comes off cd since it has a 10 sec "hidden" buff. Even if you screw up and use a ninjutsu a little too late beforehand you still have Kassatsu and Ten Chi Jin to fall back on. If all 3 of these are on cd then you may need to give some thought as to better manage your ogcd's. As far as hitting the rear that shouldn't be an issue for any leveled ninja, however if ppl find it difficult use true north. Ninja has 2 "optional" slots since we don't need diversion and can go without bloodbath

[MomoOG]

In a realistic fight MNK would also benefit from TA, his Brotherhood (chakra from partymembers) and his overall better sustain dps.
Immo it's the only job that comes atleast a bit close to SAM while bringing Mantra and Brotherhood for the grp.

This is bad reasoning. They were talking about solo dps. The TA damage that the MNK receives during a raid is actually counted towards NINs indirect damage not MNKs damage in a raid setting to decide balance (you can't double dip and count the TA damage twice). Also, you are making the assumption that there is always a NIN present. If there is a NIN always present due to guaranteed position for NIN to always be present than that by definition shows there is am imbalance with the NIN class.

[Sam26]

This is bad reasoning. They were talking about solo dps.

Wasn't that though what jobs in the game were balanced arround? According to what you are saying Bards for example should be complaining that their "solo" low dps and ignore the fact how they perform in a raid setting?
I'm talking about brotherhood here, since it's designed that way, that you need other player for it to make it work even if you leave Nin out. Also how meaningful is a ~2:30 parse when realistic fights take 7+min.... Take BLM for example, they are getting buffed soon, regarding that logic they should be nerfed since they do higher dmg on the SSS?....

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Also, you are making the assumption that there is always a NIN present. If there is a NIN always present due to guaranteed position for NIN to always be present than that by definition shows there is am imbalance with the NIN class.

At endgame, NIN can be pretty much be guaranteed in every raid comp while SAM/MNK fight over the remaining raid melee spot.