Thank you SE

[MyaValentine]

This thread is filled with people who have no idea why PLD was actually lacking in HW.

you mean aside from not having path or delirium, not been able to have magic mitigation, useless utility and to top it off having the less dps with also 0 aoe and the longest CD? or do you mean also because we had an overpowered tank that could do anything that other 2 could but better, self sustain and do nearly as much damage as a dps? or idk you mean the fact that mitigation is not nearly as necessary as overall dps since this community believes dps is all? there were plenty of reason but it all boiled down to overall dps, yes pld dps wasn't much under drk/war (yeah right!) but the overall damage they brought to the team was a lot more. Guess what's going to happen to paladin if war and drk go back to 300+ dps difference since pld entire tool kit that everyone is praising is mitigation.

[AziraSyuren]

snip

+1 for generally knowing what you're talking about, but I mean the people who seem to imply that less damage alone will kill Paladin when, in reality, they fixed almost every other issue that held the class back in HW.

Paladin was bad. It was a joke. It being bad was a meme because it was so bad. It was actually detrimental to bring because it couldn't do its job nearly as well as the alternatives where it mattered most (and in expert dungeons). Other classes that were arguably underperforming compared to their alternatives (BLM, SMN, and WHM[I think]) weren't jokes because they weren't actually detrimental and still did their job well enough.

But now PLD can do its job well enough and can actually help underperforming groups instead of making the game harder for them. It won't be optimal for sheer speed but it'll sure as hell do its job better than the alternatives when it matters the most, unless its DPS really is that much lower than the alternatives (and it wasn't actually that much lower back in HW).

(unless we get gordias-level DPS checks again, in which case, oops)

[Cadmus]

Oh yep, guy below me is right.

Solo on a dummy, warr has more DPS. But in a raid setting, PLD gets slashing debuff, which puts its dps on par with Warr. And then they surpass Warr because Warr's gauge is more punishing.

I do like the changes for warr and drk. I am sad by the nerf on PLD tho instead of just bringing up the other tanks.

[konage]

Slashing debuff. Imagine if paladin had a 100% uptime their dps would be higher on the dummy

[konage]

They haven't said how much of a potency nerf yet. Might be a small potency decrease. And transition of fights matters. It's easier to spam holy spirit than 6 del cleaves.

[eagledorf]

snip

No, it really was basically just DPS that first pushed PLD out.

People make a big deal about Path, but you only used it occasionally because BB was more DPS. A3S PLD had such superior mitigation that a group was able to solo tank+solo heal it with PLD just sitting at max stacks the entire time, but it didn't matter for most groups because DPS.

A4S they actually designed the fight so mitigation didn't matter for most mechanics ("Darkness" type damage, damage not from the boss that couldn't be debuffed, not being able to even target the boss for 2/3 of the fight to apply Path, flat damage from dolls being eaten that cooldowns didn't work on, etc.) and most damage on the tank other than the beams after Royal Pentacle was a joke. Those beams you could trade HG to make trivial as well, but none of that mattered because DPS.


Now, DRG was a part of the reason PLD brought such bad DPS and they've taken some steps to fix that by eliminating most debuffs and nerfing Disembowel, but DPS is supreme over all unless they make it actually impossible without the mitigation a particular job brings. If they were to do that, say you can get around gear checks only if you have PoA, it would be an even bigger failure than Heavensward in terms of balance and would not impress me at all.

[Scyn]

Started at the end of Heavensward, but PLD can't block magic, nor any magic mitigation outside of rampart, and to top it off doing less damage. Everyone knows that.

No what people don't know is that it wasn't just the fact that we had less DPS and couldn't block magic. But Warriors had more utility, more damage, better CDs, and were better overall tanks. They had everything, literally everything and we didn't excel in anything outside of having multiple physical attacking targets hit us. Guess how many raids in Alexander had a floor with multiple physical targets hitting the tank. Just 1, A2S (which was a joke of a fight to begin with). The difference was HUGE between War/Drk vs. PLD in HW. The difference between PLD and War/DRK now is not even close to the gap it was before. And the sad part is depending on what they do to Holy Spirit they may nerf the recast time enough to make that and Requiscat useless which would really blow.

[DWolfwood]

How come it is boring?

I'm just gonna take a wild guess here and say you probably don't play DRK often, or haven't had it leveled to 70 for very long. The job isn't bad per say, and I agree with most of the changes, but it's just had the effect of making the job very boring because it's so repetitive. There's still a challenge in MP management due to how easy it is to cap out on mana, but again, the nature of it is just very repetitive.

No, it really was basically just DPS that first pushed PLD out.

Any PLD that got "pushed" out for DPS in HW after Gordias had only their own faults to blame. PLD was proven viable in terms of DPS in A3S and it only got buffed from there on. By the end, there was only a tiny gap between DRK and PLD. Most people didn't even reach A4S in time to realize that PLD was below the threshold. The reason why DRK sustained its role is because of the nature of the raids. Had things been all physical, we would have seen a much worse scenario for DRK.

You may not remember this far back, but when DRK was first released, everyone thought the job was near trash and would only have a place in endgame if every fight catered to it. Yoshida said, "please wait for savage to decide." Low and behold, every fight catered to DRK's broken kit in some way.

[RaizeGraymalkin]

Again, wait for Tuesday because we have no idea what the changes will be. It's just too early for any kind of feedback on changes that don't even exist yet.

But yeah, if 4.05 rolls around and DRK/PLD isn't at least equal to any comp including a WAR, some people at SE most definitely need to lose their jobs.

That's really all there is to it. That's basically the standard for tank balance coming out of HW. DRK+PLD needs to be desirable.

Yeah people should lose their jobs, because of fucking tank balance. This fucking community man. I get that you were probably being somewhat facetious, but even still.

[Furious]

Yay STR on accessories.

Wanna bet it's gonna be something like 20-30 STR, thereby making absolutely no difference to the current situation because VIT is still a binary stat that loses all value past the line of necessity?

Calling it right now.

If they put 30str on accessories, and you can socket 25 str, you're at 55 str. A 270 str accessory has ~100 rating, 140 with materia, while a 320 has ~200.

You'd be trading ~25 str for 60 secondary rating and 120 vitality. In the past, the top tier secondary rating is generally somewhere between 3 and 4 times weaker than primary in terms of dps, so we can call 60 secondary around 15 str, meaning you're at best giving up 10 str for 120 vitality.

Multiply by 4 and well.. that's one serious trade-off.