Not again...

[SunAurel]

PLD main here and the argument 'but pld offers utility!!!' doesn't hold when you don't need it

Group Mitigation is all nice if you have shit healers or awful gear, but as the gear progresses, PoA & divine veil will lose its worth because 'hey we survive it just as well without it' and that's where the damage comes in.

The raids in this game are centered around damage. You can skip mechanics if you do enough damage, so why take a pld if you don'T need the mitigation when you can have a drk that makes more dps?


the HS nerf is minor, but the problem is real. The utility paladin offers is not something that gets used or is even needed outside the first 3 weeks of raiding

Group Utility is centered around dps. If PLD had a group buff that would increase the damage of the party by 5% or w/e, then the damage the paladin does not do would be done by the party, but a 4500 hp shield on top of a fully healed, already shielded party does not kill the boss faster

[Faeon]

PLD main here and the argument 'but pld offers utility!!!' doesn't hold when you don't need it

Group Mitigation is all nice if you have shit healers or awful gear, but as the gear progresses, PoA & divine veil will lose its worth because 'hey we survive it just as well without it' and that's where the damage comes in.

The raids in this game are centered around damage. You can skip mechanics if you do enough damage, so why take a pld if you don'T need the mitigation when you can have a drk that makes more dps?


the HS nerf is minor, but the problem is real. The utility paladin offers is not something that gets used or is even needed outside the first 3 weeks of raiding

Group Utility is centered around dps. If PLD had a group buff that would increase the damage of the party by 5% or w/e, then the damage the paladin does not do would be done by the party, but a 4500 hp shield on top of a fully healed, already shielded party does not kill the boss faster

This I agree with, but there is nothing that can be done about it SE don't balance around DPS of a single tank as they said before in a LL. They balance overall group DPS with different comps, if they match there requirements everything fine. Its the player-base who creates this negative and meta game play in this MMO. There is nothing that can be done about this, people leave and people stay and make due. Unfortunately one of the tanks will always be left out just like DPS.

We will have to accept it and move on, no amount of complaints will make SE balance a fight on a per job basis as they would never be able to meat the 3 month patch requirements. That is from Yoshi's own mouth.

[SunAurel]

This I agree with, but there is nothing that can be done about it SE don't balance around DPS of a single tank as they said before in a LL. They balance overall group DPS with different comps, if they match there requirements everything fine. Its the player-base who creates this negative and meta game play in this MMO. There is nothing that can be done about this, people leave and people stay and make due. Unfortunately one of the tanks will always be left out just like DPS.

We will have to accept it and move on, no amount of complaints will make SE balance a fight on a per job basis as they would never be able to meat the 3 month patch requirements. That is from Yoshi's own mouth.

but why couldn't it be Warrior for once :<

[Faeon]

but why couldn't it be Warrior for once :<

I wish I could answer this, I just don't know. Though they love WAR since it got a complete rework in 2.x, got made the near perfect tank in 3.x with dps and utility.

I moved from PLD to WAR and DRK in 3.x or I could not clear raid content since groups were "PLD get the Fxxx out of here quotes" so I understand how you feel.

Maybe they got some dev who is just like every job is shit except WAR lol! Your guess is as good as mine.

[Xenosan]

Maybe they got some dev who is just like every job is shit except WAR lol! Your guess is as good as mine.

Warbros bitched loud enough is all it was.

I wonder how much Path buff is, 20 potency or higher?

[kensatsu]

You can't bring all defensive utility and nice dps to one tank.
But playerbase think all is about dps now. All the time.
Gordias bring this in the mind, but don't tell it was the case on A9s to A12s pls...
Now you won't change this bad mentality about tank dps now. and it make PLD to want equal dps instead of more defensive utility, because the first care of the playerbase is the dps, by the way, load of midcore savage raiders, think only about dps and put as a priority before the mecanics, it slow the progress a lot.
PLD is fine i think even after this little nerf, but how to change mind of the playerbase about dps. i can understand why PLD want dps so strongly.

[aleph_null]

You can't bring all defensive utility and nice dps to one tank.
But playerbase think all is about dps. All the time.
Gordias bring this in the mind, but don't tell it was the case on A9s to A12s pls...
Now you won't change this bad mentality about tank dps now. and it make PLD to want equal dps instead of more defensive utility, because the first care of the playerbase is the dps, by the way, load of midcore savage raiders, think only about dps and put as a priority before the mecanics, it slow the progress a lot.

Ironically most of this playerbase aren't even qualified to complain about drk being ahead of pld in speedkills. How many of those who cleared a12s actually ever managed to tank the whole fight without tank stance? Most of the pugs I've seen still adopt the MT-OT, MH-OH style, with one MT turtle tanking in grit/shield oath and one MH healing nearly the whole time. If they complain about a12s being almost purely magic damage heavy and pld being bad there, sure, I agree that it's a very valid concern.

Gordias was famous for being dps check heavy, but people often forget that it's also difficult to optimize tanking/healing there (I never cleared a3s when it was current so I may not be qualified to comment on this either). Most of the damages going to tanks in a3s and a4s are actually cleaves with no cast bar, so planning and timing your mitigation cds for them to allow for less tank stance uptime is hard. On top of that a3s requires a lot of boss repositioning, so if the tank is bad at it, melees will lose a lot of positionals. Midas a7s and a8s are probably good examples of fights where pld's extra physical mitigation, divine veil and hallowed ground actually make them worth taking over drk unless you're doing speedkills where drk's higher dps makes it the optimal choice.

[Brannigan]

Midas a7s and a8s are probably good examples of fights where pld's extra physical mitigation, divine veil and hallowed ground actually make them worth taking over drk unless you're doing speedkills where drk's higher dps makes it the optimal choice.

A8S is a tossup imo. Paladin made you a safer on late-phase tank busters (though you can probably just have warrior cheese them with Holmgang/all their shit) and lets you cheese land mines. Dark Knight let you neuter his AOEs, which are just as dangerous. A7S is similar where HG will let you cheese a couple tank busters but the real threat in that fight is actually Sizzlebeam and his AOE stuff. Divine Veil was wayyyyy too slow to make a difference vs DRK's int down/Reprisal. I did both these fights as paladin, but I think my group would have gotten them weeks earlier if I bit the bullet and played DRK again.

Unless they significantly lengthen the cast time, you should still be able to get 5 holy spirits in. You would just lose the ability to use ogcds between casts.

I'm really hoping they just nerf the potency and don't fuck with the cast time because oGCDs isn't even the biggest loss of being forced into a 2s+ cast. It's movement. Even on easy shit like Susanoo, half of my Requiescat windows line up with mechanics. Also, that's a longer time for which you're unable to block.

Well as someone who has done savage I would not expect for you to have that level of ignorance. Pld was out of the meta because of the meta itself not the class.

Also this is from a couple pages back but it's kind of incorrect. Both the party composition problems and paladin's weakness were to blame. Remember that at the start of HW, TP was an issue, potencies were lower, Clemency had a longer cast time, Divine Veil had a longer cooldown, Cover was still useless, Shield Oath had a higher penalty, and I think even Shield Swipe was still a GCD. Dark Knight's weakness to physical was also much less than paladin's weakness to magic, and paladin kind of cut it close on cooldowns even as late as Alexander Prime (which was doable, but unpleasant, and DRK was still better in every way). Really their only advantages were HG and Sheltron, which was amazing against Living Liquid but very hard to time and also completely useless against Manipulator and a few other fights.

[aleph_null]

A8S is a tossup imo. Paladin made you a safer on late-phase tank busters (though you can probably just have warrior cheese them with Holmgang/all their shit) and lets you cheese land mines. Dark Knight let you neuter his AOEs, which are just as dangerous. A7S is similar where HG will let you cheese a couple tank busters but the real threat in that fight is actually Sizzlebeam and his AOE stuff. Divine Veil was wayyyyy too slow to make a difference vs DRK's int down/Reprisal. I did both these fights as paladin, but I think my group would have gotten them weeks earlier if I bit the bullet and played DRK again.

My bad it was unclear but I was trying to say about pld being something to consider over drk since it also offers something useful, unlike in a9s-a11s where they offer little to nothing while lacking drk's aoe, int down as well as single target dps. Wasn't implying them to be better than drk.

I played Paladin though all of FFXIV and I really never switch main jobs ever. I level everything to level cap but I still play one main job. Paladin wasn't that good in alex due to so much magic damage that you could not do anything about. Still beat alex so yes it could be done but what it seemed like was that it really wasn't optimal because I was taking more damage and doing less.

No one would deny that a4s and a12s are terribly designed encounters in terms of magic/physical damage balance. No fight should lean toward one type of damage that far, especially when we have a tank that's really good in physical mitigation and another that's really good in magic mitigation. That'd just make one tank really good and the other really bad for the fight. On a slightly unrelated note, while I liked thordan ex, I also think that the fight leaned too far toward physical damage.

[Poison_Rose]

I'm really hoping they just nerf the potency and don't fuck with the cast time because oGCDs isn't even the biggest loss of being forced into a 2s+ cast. It's movement. Even on easy shit like Susanoo, half of my Requiescat windows line up with mechanics. Also, that's a longer time for which you're unable to block.

A potency nerf would be better than extending the cast time, we're in agreement there. Even if they do extend the cast time you could still slidecast it but let me tell you screwing that up would feel even worse since you'd be sitting there for that much longer only to mess it up by moving too soon.

Of course I'd rather them not do either, but apparently that's what's happening.