Halve mana on stance swap

[SyzzleSpark]

Actually the more I think about it, the more this is bothering me. Please clarify this statement? You're implying that players aren't capable of moving / pressing cooldowns while swapping stances. I'm sure there's something I'm missing here because based on what I've seen of your posts I don't think you'd say something that off base.

Yes you can move/press cooldowns, how is that relevant? The entire discussion is about a loss of potency that rides on the GCD, not whether or not you can hit off-GCD cooldowns or move your character. While the GCD from your stance activation is ticking your MT that needs you to swap with him is still tanking the boss, probably with a debuff. Of course you can plan around this, but that requires activating your stance early and losing more DPS, something WAR has never had to do. I can't listen to any argument that says tank swapping with a stance change on PLD/DRK in 3.x was not hot garbage compared to WAR, I'm sorry.

Except there was always a cost, and even at costing 20 gauge it would still effectively cost 3 GCDs as opposed to 1 / a small chunk of mana. The MP cost is a singular riot blade or timing a sheltron to block an AOE spell - AKA barely anything. DRK is a separate issue and I'm not qualified to comment on that, since I haven't gotten my DRK to level 70 yet.

There absolutely was not always a cost, other than the lack of instantaneous mitigation intrinsic to Defiance, which imo is an argument rendered completely moot when you consider that since early 2.x after fixing WAR back in BCoB, it has had the most powerful and versatile cooldown suite out of all the tanks, hands down, and it is now arguably even more powerful with the addition of Rampart. Arguing that the lack of instant mitigation from swapping to Defiance was ever a true and real hindrance to the job in content is like arguing that WAR is squishier than the other tanks; it ain't true.

You cannot equate the lost gauge to a loss of 3 GCDs because that's like saying the potency of those GCDs is just gone, which it isn't, only the gauge is. So that statement is extremely misleading and is nowhere near spending a GCD doing zero damage.

I've said for years that the easiest way to balance tank stances is to simply put them all off-GCD and have Defiance refill your HP to make it instant mitigation. Dunno why they did this instead, but I honestly expected it. Swapping stances should cost something significant, or it should cost nothing. And for years it has been a DPS loss for 2 tanks and a minor mitigation hiccup for the other. Now its a DPS loss for all 3.

Most people are simply saying that it should go back to being costless, rather than suggesting ideas for a different cost since they don't like the current one.

What's really funny about this troll thread is that for years, WARs said: "if you nerf us instead of bringing DRK and PLD up to WAR's level, then we'll just have 3 tanks that are poorly designed" and now this thread is advocating that exact same approach from the other direction: make DRK and PLD's stance swapping even more garbage than it was in 3.x to bring it down to how bad we think we have it.

PLD loses a GCD both ways. That's ridiculous. DRK loses a GCD one way and an half of one the other (yes people always forget that turning Grit off is still on the GCD, even though it doesn't trigger it.), plus a sizeable chunk of a much more valuable resource.

And then there's the fact that if you burst out all your MP and then need to activate tank stance suddenly, you're screwed. Whereas if it worked like WAR, I could just floor my mana and still turn it on. Yes of course this can be played around, but by that same logic, so can the lack of instant mitigation inherent in Defiance. Grass is always greener I suppose.

That's because you're arguing that an ability that a lot of people despise is mathematically justified. I'm pretty sure I could mathematically justify taxing you 90% of your paycheck, but I'm also sure that you wouldn't like it.

Prefacing your argument with "Now don't get me wrong, WAR does need buffs" doesn't help because you continue to argue against the change that it seems like most people have been complaining about (aside from Shake it off, for obvious reasons).

Flag on the play: straw man.

I did not say that WAR's gauge should keep the cost it currently has. My entire post was simply justifying it having a cost at all, and pointing out that the cost of DRK and PLD's stances are still harsh enough from a DPS and resource standpoint that they don't require further nerfing. WAR's design right now is pretty garbage, I'll agree, and SE doesn't realize that they've built a job which they cannot adjust or tune or balance properly because pulling at any thread would unravel the entire tapestry of it. Beautiful things are often fragile.

I also prefaced my post the way I did because - get this - it is actually what I believe. WAR having all of its utility stripped away means its DPS should be lightspeed-better than PLD. Anyway, unless they're going to make all the stances costless, WAR's stances should have *some* kind of cost, preferably of a resource they can easily recover which was why I suggested buffs to their gauge generation.

[Tegernako]

WAR needs a lot of help. It does. In no way am I saying that it does not have buffs coming to it.

You going into every single WAR thread and going "Well you totally have it bad but let me tell you about DRK" is kind of getting annoying. We get it, you think DRK is waaay worse off then WAR great.

I disagree. (Like we don't just lose gauge, we lose half our class on stance switch and our gauge) It happens. But I don't go into every DRK thread and say "but war" either.

[Dizzy_Derp]

Pld pays a significant amount of MP and loses half of their Oath Gauge, which governs their most reliable mitigation and one of their biggest utilities.

Pld doesn't pay shit. You may not even lose 1 ability for it and He got go say "it's on the gcd" well that's because it's a cooldown it gives 20% mitigation that you can survive a hit with. Swap to defiance and your just gonna get wrecked same as if you didnt. You need a heal to have more up and gg on that inner beast, you swapped lost your gauge and can't use it now.

[Tegernako]

Pld doesn't pay shit. You may not even lose 1 ability for it and He got go say "it's on the gcd" well that's because it's a cooldown it gives 20% mitigation that you can survive a hit with. Swap to defiance and your just gonna get wrecked same as if you didnt. You need a heal to have more up and gg on that inner beast, you swapped lost your gauge and can't use it now.

Why do we still respond to that person lol

[SyzzleSpark]

snip

I only have two posts in WAR threads not including this one (if you can even count this one) younger than a week old. There's also half a dozen of them on the front page that I haven't even looked at, mostly because they're all different people making the exact same thread complaining about the exact same things.

Anyway, its a relevant topic. The consensus seems to be that DRK/PLD is going to be meta, but I really think WAR will be better simply because it deals more damage than DRK, has better personal mitigation, and TBN's 4K shield on the MT is really not as powerful a utility as people are making it out to be.

I think the argument that you lose "half your class" on the switch is a pretty big instance of hyperbole. You just trade abilities for other abilities. SE could word it like this and no one would bat an eye, observe:

Fell Cleave: 500 potency
Defiance potency: 350, ignores penalty and heals for a portion of the damage dealt while granting 20% mitigation for 6s

Decimate: 280 potency AoE
Defiance potency, 200, ignores penalty and grants increased enmity.

Unchained: Removes damage penalty of defiance
Deliverance effect: halves beast gauge cost and grants immunity to stun/sleep/ etc.

By all means debate with people in DRK threads about how WAR has it worse. Not gonna tell you what you can and can't do.

[FearShadow]

As WAR, I reeally dont want PLD to be nerfed. Keep them in the fantastic spot theyre in. Itll just give SE more reason to leave WAR broken. Give us tanks proper balance without unnecessary take backs.

[Tegernako]

I only have two posts in WAR threads not including this one (if you can even count this one) younger than a week old. There's also half a dozen of them on the front page that I haven't even looked at, mostly because they're all different people making the exact same thread complaining about the exact same things.

Doesn't feel that way.

but I really think WAR will be better simply because it deals more damage than DRK, has better personal mitigation, and TBN's 4K shield on the MT is really not as powerful a utility as people are making it out to be.

That's because you're biased. I mean, we all are, me thinking WAR is ever so slightly worse off is me being biased.

I think the argument that you lose "half your class" on the switch is a pretty big instance of hyperbole. You just trade abilities for other abilities. SE could word it like this and no one would bat an eye, observe:

yeah so remind me how FC is usable in defiance...? Oh it's not? So it's lost upon switching? Got it. So you do lose it when you switch stances? Got it.

By all means debate with people in DRK threads about how WAR has it worse. Not gonna tell you what you can and can't do.

Would be pointless because I don't think DRK is that much better off then WAR at all. I just don't preface it by saying "DRK is in a bad spot but have you seen WAR?" and then go on a monologue about how much worse I have it, and then end with a subtle nerf to the class I don't main.

I'm not really saying "don't talk about DRK in WAR threads" really so much as I'm saying don't be disingenuous with your post.

[OcieKo]

Or we can make WAR more fun by removing the passive parry/crit chance from the beast gauge in defiance and deliverance, then either bring Storm's Eye down to 10 gauge gained so they can match DRKs pace for offense, the make the only ways to gain gauge in defiance 5 on parry or 20 on (pick something that costs about 1/5th their resource per use, so Overpower or Tomahawk I guess) and just to finish making them as awesome as PLD/DRK make everything cost 50 gauge. Then make Unchained/Inner Release cost 200-250 TP instead of Beast Gauge, and might as well remove that pesky apparently super weak halves beast gauge costs off of Inner Release, since apparently your job becomes better when you dont have something like that.

So, anyone else have more stupid ideas like mine here to contribute?
I bet if you raced all 3 to develop and spend 1000 gauge, WAR would win so hard it wouldnt be funny.

Swap to defiance and your just gonna get wrecked same as if you didnt. You need a heal to have more up and gg on that inner beast, you swapped lost your gauge and can't use it now.

Keep in mind if they converted to a % maintenance system so youd gain current HP switching, youd have to accept losing current HP when switching to Deliverance, for math purposes 40k Deliverance 50k Defiance.
Switch from deliverance to defiance at 30k HP, be at 42.5k HPwhen switched. Switch from defiance to deliverance at 30k HP, be at 24k HP when switched. Both can work, but the deliverance would cost remaining HP whenever your below 100%.

yeah so remind me how FC is usable in defiance...? Oh it's not? So it's lost upon switching? Got it. So you do lose it when you switch stances? Got it.

Point was if they removed either Inner Beast or Fel Cleave, and put the removed one's effect into the kept one as an "other stance" modifier, things wouldn't change at all. Same with Steel Cyclone/Decimate and Unchained/Inner Release.

This arguement wouldn't be any more valid in AST/SCH/SMN/BRD forums than it is here.

Just gonna leave you with a friendly (not disingenous) reminder that considering Fell Cleave to be "half your class" could be arguably be how WAR ended up where it is now. =/

Makes ya happy they dont play ASTs and try to get shields and regens at the same time, because "half my class is gone".

I\\'m suggesting that darks and paladins lose half mana on stance swap. Just to be fair since wars lose half beast guage on swap and our defensive, ib, and offensive, fc, abilities both tied to it.

Then WARs will get to lose 200-500 TP on Stance Swap just to be fair... Yep sounds like crap for everyone.

[SyzzleSpark]

yeah so remind me how FC is usable in defiance...? Oh it's not? So it's lost upon switching? Got it. So you do lose it when you switch stances? Got it.

Just gonna leave you with a friendly (not disingenous) reminder that considering Fell Cleave to be "half your class" could be arguably be how WAR ended up where it is now. =/

[Tegernako]

Just gonna leave you with a friendly (not disingenous) reminder that considering Fell Cleave to be "half your class" could be arguably be how WAR ended up where it is now. =/

I just didn't want to type out every dps stance ability so I used FC as my example of why it's a factual statement to say that we lose like half our abilities for our job when we switch stances. I wasn't literally saying FC was half my class, FC is just the quickest to type.

Basically, I was being lazy.