Lets stop fighting SE and work with them. What are your ideas?

[Inuakurei]

Hello my fellow tanks. So it's pretty clear that SE doesn't want us to return to the tank dps meta. They took our str accessories away, gimped our stance dancing, and when we reverted back to ilvl 270 accessories in defiance their answer was to just give us bigger enmity modifiers. They want the old tank dps meta gone and no amount of whining is going to get them to change their minds. The old dps meta only existed in the first place because they allowed it, and now they want to change it. That much is clear. So I thought that instead of fighting SE on this, it would be better to come up with some ideas that would make both us and SE happy.

So given the situation and knowing that SE won't give us str back, in your opinion what could SE do to fix things?

In my opinion the number one thing that is wrong with tanks in FFXIV is that just pure tanking is just plain easy. Outside of tank busters, there is very little that is a threat to us, and even those aren't all that intimidating. There's something very wrong when its even possible for us to wear equipment that is not using our main stat and is 50 ilvls lower than the required ilvl. Yet we can still effectively tank. In no world should we, or any class, be allowed to ignore our main stat like that. But we can, and it needs to be fixed.

I think there are three main reasons that contribute to this:

1. Most mobs and bosses simply do too little single target damage overall to be a threat to us.
2. Healers have too much single target hps.
3. Tanks have too much hp.
4. Tanks have too much passive damage mitigation.

I think all of these issues will need to be looked at eventually, but for the sake of simplicity, not breaking other parts of the game, and current events I'll focus on numbers three and four.

Disclaimer: I don't know enough about each tank's inner workings to make detailed explanations for each one. This is more of a general idea of what I think could be done and by no means a 100% fully fleshed out plan. So please feel free to tell me if it sucks and I'm an idiot.

My overall goal for fixing tanks to be both fun for us, and in line with what SE wants would be to make both the tank and dps stances better and more defined. To do this a few things would need to change.

So first off as much as it might suck to say, in my humble opinion our overall vitality gained from gear needs to go down a bit. Doing that would make it so that our main stat is more desirable, and tanking outside of tank stance would be much more dangerous. Tanking in dps stance is ideally only something you would do if you already over geared the content.

Second to make up for some of the lost survivability, we make the tank stances better. There are a few ways to do this, but I think one of the more interactive ways would be to give some of the skills additional effects while in tank stance. It would help make tanking in tank stance more involved rather than passive.

Lastly SE doesn't appear to be against tanks doing damage outside of tanking, just not while tanking. So I think the last thing would be to make the dps stances a tad better as well. This way if managed correctly our solo capabilities won't be hindered by the lower hp from losing some vit, and we can still do decent damage while off tanking in trials and raids.

I think something like this could be the best of both worlds, and give both SE and tank players what they want.

tldr: Reduce tank classes overall survivability then make up for it by making both tank and dps stances better.

[InfiniDragon]

Nope, can't agree. I enjoy the current XIV meta for what it is; makes tanking more exciting for me that I can both manage bigger pulls and be tanky, while still have meaningful personal DPS (although not to the level of 3.0, nowhere near traditional MMO tank damage).

I would be disappointed to see these changes ever come to fruition, myself.

[aleph_null]

They should separate dmg scaling and hp scaling to different stats, just like how healers have their healing power scaled off int and mp scaled off pie.

[Shurrikhan]

1. Most mobs and bosses simply do too little single target damage overall to be a threat to us.
2. Healers have too much single target hps.
3. Tanks have too much hp.
4. Tanks have too much passive damage mitigation.

1. Dragoons now have only 25% more Defense than typical that of typical melee DPS, down from 27%. Tanks in turn have only 50% more Defense and Magic Defense than typical melee DPS (leather armor), down from 82%.
2. Give all Fending Accessories only as much main stat (Vitality) as any other accessory type's (e.g. Strength).
3. The base Vitality of tanks has been decreased by 15%.
4. Give tanks .8 Attack Power per Vitality.
5. Protect has been removed from the game. Healers no longer need equip, cast, and unequip it.

That's enough for me, to be honest. I don't think tanks using DPS stance is in any way a bad thing. It's what makes dungeons feel like team play, far more than the any preoccupation with roles that would sacrifice clear speeds for excess enmity, toolkit neglect, and overhealing.

[Talec]

Ideas coming from a lvl 50 ranger... seems legit.

No really: What is your qualification for suggest Solutions to the actual Trank-Traumata?

[ADVSS]

They should separate dmg scaling and hp scaling to different stats, just like how healers have their healing power scaled off int and mp scaled off pie.

you mean like having str affect their attack power/enmity generation/and self healing while Vit increase their hp pool?


More importantly, id rather they take baby steps, dont want to stumble down the stairs before getting ahead.

Best solution: scale damage with Vit and change the weakness to deal det down, similar to titan hm gaols.

Runner up: Add strength to fending accessories. You HAVE to scale tanks damage some kind of way, or else youll be placing enmity buffs on them every patch cycle, thats too much of a headache to even bother with. Stop the madness.

Next on the list is tank balance. It can be done many ways i personally like having a niche or identity for them, thats not as seriously vague or boring as "this the magic defense tank" "and this blocks physical attacks" "and this one deals dps. oh we gotta fix that" being that all tank gear gives the same amount of phys and magic defense, lets just stop that nonsense and go straight for what makes a tank and what doesnt.


My opinion on what tanks should be able to do is a little more extreme that what it seems that SE envisions them. Except when you look at paladin. Flat out hybrid healer/highmitigation/dps tank. Im ok with it being where it is, as long as the other two get their niches as well which are also so good, over paladin that all three will be considered. But thats my opinion. Many other people probably want homogeny to the point where they might as well just make pld the only tank.

[aleph_null]

you mean like having str affect their attack power/enmity generation/and self healing while Vit increase their hp pool?

Yeah so it'll be easier for the devs to balance our stats, as in how much dps they want us to do, and how much hp they want us to have, instead of adjusting one of them and have the other one inevitably affected.

[eagledorf]

I mean, it would actually be really simple for them to force us to use the tank stance, just make all enmity modifiers conditional to the tank stance and/or add a hate dropper on the DPS stance. Like literally make it so you only generate 50% of a DPS's hate in DPS stance, then people will spend a lot more time in tank stance. They could also increase our DPS stance damage without much problem then since it will only be usable while tanking so you won't have that problem where MSQ takes forever on a tank.

That ship has sailed though, tank mains expect to do good DPS even while tanking and alienating too many tanks will ruin the game for DPS players who make up the majority. They need to give something new to tanks if they take pushing DPS away or they'll piss everybody off, but they literally gave almost all DPS skills from 60-70 and then crippled your output with these new toys. If the point was to get us to be more defensive, they should have given us a bunch of new defensive toys instead!

I think it's not realistic for them to make all new tank mechanics for all 3 jobs, certainly not before another expansion so they should admit failure and simply put STR on Fending accessories for 4.0.

I do agree with you though that tanking is not engaging right now. Like on these Omega fights you're literally a DPS who happens to have enmity. Heck, I bet the second boss could actually be tanked by a DPS if everybody else used Diversion on cooldown. I'm sure savage will hit harder, but that shouldn't be the only fight in the game where you actually do your role.

[Duelle]

Best solution: scale damage with Vit and change the weakness to deal det down, similar to titan hm gaols.

Unless we also turn Determination into an insanely powerful stat, you're essentially weakening the penalty that's supposed to come with dying. And in doing that, you say "hello, zombie strats".

Runner up: Add strength to fending accessories. You HAVE to scale tanks damage some kind of way, or else youll be placing enmity buffs on them every patch cycle, thats too much of a headache to even bother with. Stop the madness.

I can agree with this, though I am of the opinion that main stats should not be on accessories at all.

Next on the list is tank balance. It can be done many ways i personally like having a niche or identity for them, thats not as seriously vague or boring as "this the magic defense tank" "and this blocks physical attacks" "and this one deals dps. oh we gotta fix that" being that all tank gear gives the same amount of phys and magic defense, lets just stop that nonsense and go straight for what makes a tank and what doesnt.

I'd personally focus on the gameplay of each while aiming to make the tanks interchangable. From something I wrote on the matter:

Tank 1: Passive mitigation via a defensive stance. General-use cooldowns that mitigate big hits.
Tank 2: Active mitigation tank. Has to manage resource recovery and generation in order to mitigate hits on set intervals, with abilities that can be used to survive tank-busters. Mathematically is the same as tank 1, but has to press more buttons and keep an eye on resources to be competitive.
Tank 3: Upkeep tank. Relies on secondary effects from attacks in order to achieve mitigation (certain attacks grant Defense Up, Evasion Up, Parry Up and so on). Mathematically the same as tank 1, but is much more reliant on their physical attacks to also allow them to reach the intended levels of mitigation.

Tank 1 is perfect for someone like me, who likes simple and straightforward gameplay. Tank 2 is more for the risk/reward type of player. Tank 3 is for the player that likes to constantly press abilities.

I mean, it would actually be simple for them to force us to use the tank stance, just make all enmity modifiers conditional to the tank stance and/or add a hate dropper on the DPS stance. Like literally make it so you only generate 50% of a DPS's hate in DPS stance, then people will spend a lot more time in tank stance. They could also increase our DPS stance damage without much problem then since it will only be usable while tanking so you won't have that problem where MSQ takes forever on a tank.

Not without restructuring every tank in the game. The reason they haven't locked enmity bonuses behind tank stances is because it messes with low level tanks. A GLA or MRD tanking Sastasha-Totorak would have almost no way of holding a mob's attention until they unlock PLD/WAR to get Shield Oath/Defiance.

And trust me, I've been asking for them to do this for a while now.

That ship has sailed though, tank mains expect to do good DPS

Not all tank mains. For those of us who have tanked in the past and remember it (my Shillien Knight taking forever to kill things, as did my Super Strength/Invincibility tanker, as did my WoW prot warrior during vanilla and TBC, and my tank-specced Jedi Guardian, to name a few), it's just business as usual. Any increases in damage are appreciated, but we sure as hell don't forget we're there to take hits.

[ADVSS]

Unless we also turn Determination into an insanely powerful stat, you're essentially weakening the penalty that's supposed to come with dying. And in doing that, you say "hello, zombie strats".
I can agree with this, though I am of the opinion that main stats should not be on accessories at all.
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well i was talking back in the day, that was no ordinary det down when your damage was like 20%. Figuratively, though they just do flat damage output and heal output for the duration of the weakness. I shouldve been less vague


your other suggestion i agree with, especially with gameplay/thematics where each tank can do well in areas, they just achieve that by a different means. Im not very happy to see the lifesteal of SE get smooshed, but thats only because i feel like it should be a tank ability for self sustain a little bit. Then I see pld get triple the amount they once had on full mp, and now I dont know what they want tanks to be able to do exactly. They could pull a blood price and lock cooldowns to tank stance, warrior has this already anyway, but as you said no cooldowns for low level tanks...so they cant do that either. Its obvious they dont like tanks dealing a good amount of damage...but darn the algorithm for grabbing enmity kinda messes that one up..