Tanks that think they are DPS, just stop...

[Heleth]

I'm confused as to whats really being debated here..... First of all, what is the definition of "optimize your dps".....? Is it about staying the longest in dps stance while at the same time holding emnity? Or does staying in tank stance while holding emnity and doin your dps rotation also fall under that definition.....Nobody is really just staying in tank stance and only doing their emnity combo right? Nobody is saying/has said that?

And what content are we talking about here? There are(or at least should be) numerous factors that should dictate how you play as a tank.... Gauging your party's capabilities should be a skill all tanks should have(or at least strive to have)... Are you playing with your FC/static? are you playing with a random df/pf group? Are we talking about dungeons, or raid encounters....?

If I play with friends/FC then Im sure as h*** going to go alot more offensive, then if I'm playing with a random df group.. Also if I've done the instance a gazillion times, I'll probably stance dance more often, gear level also plays a part in this.... Is the group well geared, does the healers mana bar barely move, does mobs die fast or slow...

Some of you seem to be saying that if you stay in tank stance then you are doing it wrong, I'd just like to know what content you are talking about....

[Yorumi]

Or does staying in tank stance while holding emnity and doin your dps rotation also fall under that definition.....Nobody is really just staying in tank stance and only doing their emnity combo right? Nobody is saying/has said that?

In a lot of ways they are, even if they don't know it. The only real thing this game brings to the table is changing stances mid battle. It's not that other games havn't done that it's just that most games lock you into your stance or just flat out don't have them and just have dps and agro skills(if even that, plenty of games just expect you to hold hate through damage). You have plenty of people trying to say tanks shouldn't dps, well if that's the case does that mean I shouldn't use anything that doesn't directly contribute enmity bonuses? If we acknowledge that goring blade, fell cleave, royal authority and such have a place in tanking then we acknowledge dps has a place in tanking.

You have these people saying "if I'm holding hate I'm doing my job" eh kind of. In many other games "holding hate" involves perfecting a rotation and maximizing dps while also hitting proper cooldowns. Basically FF14 allows tanks to be very very lazy and still hold hate. In many other games you wouldn't actually hold hate with the kind of lazy rotation and optimization these people suggest.

Lets be honest here optimizing means using the full kit, suggesting anything less is suggesting ignoring tools available. Obviously the player needs to react to the group and the encounter but consider we basically have:
dps says I don't want to use some of my abilities. Response: "wtf you suck, use everything you have"
tanks says tanks should use all their abilities: "wtf no, you should only use part of your kit or you're some damn dirty elitist."

So yeah it's not unreasonable to say people are suggesting you just stay in tank stance and spam your enmity combo considering it's insult worth to try to perform well for a party as a tank using your full kit.

[YitharV2]

You have these people saying "if I'm holding hate I'm doing my job" eh kind of. In many other games "holding hate" involves perfecting a rotation and maximizing dps while also hitting proper cooldowns. Basically FF14 allows tanks to be very very lazy and still hold hate. In many other games you wouldn't actually hold hate with the kind of lazy rotation and optimization these people suggest.

Yeah. For Warrior Tank in TERA, you needed to know how to DPS well, or you weren't going to hold aggro. Defensive Stance is like tank stance in FFXIV. It just plops a multiplier on top of the damage you do. And only 3 skills have an aggro modifier. Torrent of Blows, Battle Cry, and Combative Strike. TERA Aggro formula. Outside of those 3 skills, Aggro = Damage * [(1 + Gear Threat Mods) * 1.85 * (1 + Threat Crystal Mods)]^2. And for those 3 skills you'd just need to include Skill Threat Mods and Glyph Threat Mods.

I feel like SE and Yoshi encourage lazy players. I mean I understand Yoshi and SE's viewpoint, but I don't agree with it.

From here:

Much as I love Yoshi-P, he encourages lazy players, not just healers. He refuses to take a stand on anything regarding player skill differences, and has even stated that he wishes to decrease the skill gap by making classes easier to play. He will never actually make any sort of statement that players can interpret at "Git Gud." That's just not how he rolls. It's also why the nerfs to the MSQ content that was actually a little challenging. Steps of Faith was never actually hard, it just took a pulse. But, your average DF denizen couldn't breathe and play at the same time, so it was nerfed. Which, I mean, from a developer standpoint, I get. You want all your players to be able to get through the story. But from a player's standpoint, it hurts. You breed laziness, by never forcing a player to ever get better. And those players become toxic towards any other players who expect them to wake up long enough to do more that the absolute minimum of effort. Case in point, the "I'll play how I want!" healers.

[Yorumi]

Yeah. For Warrior Tank in TERA, you needed to know how to DPS well, or you weren't going to hold aggro.

Tera's warrior was one I was thinking of, really lancer too you couldn't exactly be lazy. But really a lot of mmos are like that, eq2, swtor, pretty much anything doesn't allow the kind of laziness that ff14 does when tanking.

[Venjenz]

Tera's warrior was one I was thinking of, really lancer too you couldn't exactly be lazy. But really a lot of mmos are like that, eq2, swtor, pretty much anything doesn't allow the kind of laziness that ff14 does when tanking.

Most MMOs have ridiculous heal aggro, so tanks are always fighting to keep aggro off their heals. That's how the "big HP pool, do buffs to reduce number of incoming heals" meta makes those games feel more properly "trinity-ized." Think EQ1 and the Complete Heal chains of 4 clerics. Tank takes beatings, 4 clerics rotate casting CH every 3 seconds, DPS wait for tank to get boss to 90% HP before they cast anything, and even then they slowly ramp it up from basic attacks until boss at like 75% before they add in more to their rotations, etc. That's how most MMOs do raids. FF14 goes at a much faster pace, so tanks get and hold aggro a lot easier.

Basically, make the game like one never ending Sastasha run where enmity is concerned and the "problem" is solved. Leave everything as is except for two tings - make heals generate more enmity and make tank abilities generate less enmity. Done. Now the game is fun?

[SargentToughie]

Basically, make the game like one never ending Sastasha run where enmity is concerned and the "problem" is solved. Leave everything as is except for two tings - make heals generate more enmity and make tank abilities generate less enmity. Done. Now the game is fun?

Follow this one crazy step to make a huge majority of the tank playerbase drop the role forever!

[Kuwagami]

Follow this one crazy step to make a huge majority of the tank playerbase drop the role forever!

People would do anything to avoid taking responsibilities. Little do they know, DPS role responsibilities are way higher than tank ones

[Yorumi]

Basically, make the game like one never ending Sastasha run where enmity is concerned and the "problem" is solved. Leave everything as is except for two tings - make heals generate more enmity and make tank abilities generate less enmity. Done. Now the game is fun?

FF14's design is not necessarily wrong. It's just a different way of doing things. I was mainly pointing out how the "I hold hate" crowd is lazy. In other MMOs you don't hold hate doing what they do. So in other mmos you optimize your rotation and such to maximize enmity, using every gcd to that end. If you don't you lose hate so easily, as is the case in ff14 you instead use the remainder of your gcds maximizing dps. In both designs a tank should be expected to optimize ever gcd. In the former though if they are lazy they lose hate, in the later they don't, which sadly allows some to promote laziness.

[YitharV2]

Tera's warrior was one I was thinking of, really lancer too you couldn't exactly be lazy. But really a lot of mmos are like that, eq2, swtor, pretty much anything doesn't allow the kind of laziness that ff14 does when tanking.

Yeah. As stated here, all tanks need to do damage to hold aggro now. I find it kind of interesting how they made Brawler hold aggro solely on damage alone, because now it's hard for Brawlers to hold aggro as DPS have caught up with its DPS.