Summoner Over-Nered (and A few other Problems)

[Ariomi]

Arcanist has healing skill for a reason but they should scale it to INT so it would be fair to support ur pet for a bit. Also smn are able to use res too. Its fun that smn are able to support party members with raise. So why not physick

Red mage has dual cast as well. Which vastly outperforms Summoner's rez. A red mage can cast vercure on themselves then instantly cast rez.

Summoner has to either use a swiftcast or hard rez when a red mage can do it almost instantly

[Johaandr]

Dont you think i already know that. Did not mention rdm at all.
Just talked about what Smn can do. Outperforms or no... They still got access to it.

[Dualgunner]

Red mage has dual cast as well. Which vastly outperforms Summoner's rez. A red mage can cast vercure on themselves then instantly cast rez.

Summoner has to either use a swiftcast or hard rez when a red mage can do it almost instantly

In the event someone dies, RDM is in one of two situations:

1) You just cast jolt/verfire/verstone and have dualcast up, in which case you can burn 25% of your MP pool and kerfuffle your flow to pop them back up. Sure it's easy and you can but damned if I'm maybe a bit salty because that means I have to start back from Impact/Jolt again and get my manas back in balance.

2) You do not have dualcast up, in which case you would swiftcast rez anyway because vercure is still a ~2 second cast time and swift is a faster goto.

If enough people have been getting shrekt that dualcast rez swiftcast rez is needed...well, smack the healers and kiss your MP pool goodbye lol

.

I'm not against SMN getting sustain *and* a physick equivalent to vercure. There are a lot of advantages to having a RDM over a SMN and not losing a chunk of our dps when our unhealable pet dies is one of them.

The thing to realize about the dual cast raise is, let's say you pop cure for it. A 3600 mp spell to raise now needed a 600 mp preempt to it. RDM also has only 1 mp refresh at all, compared to SMN's (admittedly nerfed so I hear) aetherflow and Lucid.

RDM's real advantage is dualcast raise swiftcast raise. If it comes to that though that's ~7800 mp and some tears if Lucid isn't up. I've been in this position too often in Susan Extreme learning parties. And to add to the fun I also had healers demanding me to Mana Shift them after raising them as if I had MP for days.

Also I'm no expert of summoner but shouldn't you not be casting ruin 3 outside of dwt?

[Ariomi]

In the event someone dies, RDM is in one of two situations:

1)
2) You do not have dualcast up, in which case you would swiftcast rez anyway because vercure is still a ~2 second cast time and swift is a faster goto.

Just small Fyi.

Raise on summoner and Verraise on Red Mage cost the same amount of Mp and they have the same mana pool. Both spells cost 25% of their Mp.

Summoner has two options in that same scenario.
1) Swiftcast Raise. Using a 60 second cooldown to make it near instant.
2) Hard casting Rez - Swift cast is down. The summoner is stuck immobile and doing nothing else until the 7 Second cast time is over. If the summoner moves, or get's hit the spell can be interrupted

Red Mage's raise is vastly superior, needing only to be dual cast. You can even cast it while mobile via slide casting. (Casting a spell around 80% then moving last second. Basically a one second raise. Just another way Red Mage makes Summoner obsolete.)

And for the most part, Red Mage spells cost very little Compared to summoners. Red Mage's most draining spell is 600 Mana. Summoner's can spend 2400 Mp just resummoning pets, or 1440 if they use Ruin 3 outside of dreadwyrm trance.

[Ariomi]

RDM's real advantage is dualcast raise swiftcast raise. If it comes to that though that's ~7800 mp and some tears if Lucid isn't up. I've been in this position too often in Susan Extreme learning parties. And to add to the fun I also had healers demanding me to Mana Shift them after raising them as if I had MP for days.

Also I'm no expert of summoner but shouldn't you not be casting ruin 3 outside of dwt?

Before Stormblood, back when ruin 3 was 200 potency, if was a dps gain outside of Dwt assuming you could manage your mp. It still is in certain situations, (Mainly situations where summoner's need to burn a little bit of mana before they pot aetherflow/lucid dream.

Dual Casting works like this: You cast any spell and the next one is instant. You do not need to cast verraise then verraise again. You simply cast Jolt 2/Vercure/anything at all then you cast Verraise on the party member who died.

The only difference between Summoner's Rez and Red Mage's is that Summoner's dps absolutely plummet and the summoner can't do it quickly. or while mobile and needs the mana more then red mage does. (I literally only Lucid Dream as a red mage when somebody dies. Otherwise What is mana management?)

My Point was look at summoner's spell costs. Veraero costs 480 Mana 300 potency. Ruin 2 costs 480 Mana 100 potency. Red Mage's Strongest attack costs less Mana then Summoner's Dots. You will hardly ever see a summoner run low on mana just spamming dots and ruin 2

Dual cast makes it so that Red Mage can instantly raise anyone, and have it only be a minor dps loss. As a red mage I Just give up whatever I was going to dual cast and get on with my life.

[Dualgunner]

Dual Casting works like this: You cast any spell and the next one is instant. You do not need to cast verraise then verraise again. You simply cast Jolt 2/Vercure/anything at all then you cast Verraise on the party member who died.

Cutting you off here. Go back and re read my comment. I said Dualcast raise and then swiftcast raise immediately after is RDM's main advantage that is not replicable by any other job. I at no point said you need to hardcast verraise to dualcast verraise.

Also yes, RDM's potencies are high but it has no DoTs. None, zilch. Factor that in when considering total potency per second. And again, it only has one MP refresh so when being the backbone of a party's rezzes you wind up in the last thousand MP of your pool unable to really do anything.

[Ariomi]

Cutting you off here. Go back and re read my comment. I said Dualcast raise and then swiftcast raise immediately after is RDM's main advantage that is not replicable by any other job. I at no point said you need to hardcast verraise to dualcast verraise.

Also yes, RDM's potencies are high but it has no DoTs. None, zilch. Factor that in when considering total potency per second. And again, it only has one MP refresh so when being the backbone of a party's rezzes you wind up in the last thousand MP of your pool unable to really do anything.

No, Red Mage's Main advantage is having a rez that is either instant (swiftcast) or near instant Dualcast rez. Rez can be done while almost completely mobile and doesn't need swiftcast. Also, using swift cast won't proc dual cast. You can cast something then swiftcast and do two verraise. Summoner's dot's are 80 potency per tick btw. Summoner's pet does around 100 potency of a summoner every three seconds, and summoner's have ruin spells. At best, Summoner's getting around 430 potency per 3 second tick. (Shadow Flare Dots pet and ruin 4) Red Mage does 540 potency in the same time using just Jolt 2 and Veraero.

And Summoner has aetherflow which is only 10% mana refresh but has skills that cost more mana.The only real trade off is that Summoner can lose damage and energy drain for more mana.

If a healer dies and a caster needs to revive them, what happens if swiftcast is done? Red mage shrugs, casts one spell and Raises them no problem. Summoner is stuck hard casting that raise completely vulnerable during that time. Can't move and at the mercy of mechanics interrupting it.

Red mage is also much less punishing to play, has more dps, and outshines summoner in utility.

[Dualgunner]

No, Red Mage's Main advantage is having a rez that is either instant (swiftcast) or near instant Dualcast rez. Rez can be done while almost completely mobile and doesn't need swiftcast. Also, using swift cast won't proc dual cast. You can cast something then swiftcast and do two verraise.

Let me spell it out for you.

"Oh no both healers are dead. Vercure -> Verraise Healer 1-> Swiftcast -> Verraise Healer 2. Well, there's over half my MP pool".

Any other obvious RDM job tips you wanna share? I didn't quite understand the first time you didn't have to hardcast verraise to proc a dualcast for verraise and obviously it never dawned on me Swiftcast nulls the dualcast proc.

Or maybe you just don't pay attention and read in your victim narrative wherever possible. Woe is summoners dps despite being one of the highest. I'm not even against you that it's a difficult job to play and needs some balance added because of this but as it is, even your damage on Susano and Lakshmi shows that the job is still capable of hitting hard.

Summoner's dot's are 80 potency per tick btw. Summoner's pet does around 100 potency of a summoner every three seconds, and summoner's have ruin spells. At best, Summoner's getting around 430 potency per 3 second tick. (Shadow Flare Dots pet and ruin 4) Red Mage does 540 potency in the same time using just Jolt 2 and Veraero.

Jolt 2 and Veraero combined are 4.74 seconds going off my GCD. The fact that over a 3 second tick you get 430 potency over my getting 270 potency over 4.74 seconds brings some real tears to my eye. You seem to think Dualcast just brings you instantly to the next cast.

And Summoner has aetherflow which is only 10% mana refresh but has skills that cost more mana.The only real trade off is that Summoner can lose damage and energy drain for more mana.

Still more than RDM gets for mana refresh. A 10% MP refresh every minute tied to your core rotation whereas RDM has to wait two minutes from a fresh CD to get their next refresh which, again, if using rezzes as often as you want us to, will leave us with nothing left to attack with.

If a healer dies and a caster needs to revive them, what happens if swiftcast is done? Red mage shrugs, casts one spell and Raises them no problem. Summoner is stuck hard casting that raise completely vulnerable during that time. Can't move and at the mercy of mechanics interrupting it.

And what happens when the RDM is out of mana because this isn't the first time it's happened? Then the RDM loses out on a ton of damage because we don't have nice DoTs up doing FaF damage for us.

Red mage is also much less punishing to play, has more dps, and outshines summoner in utility.

I won't deny RDM is a less punishing class. SMN is needlessly punishing at the moment. Dualcast makes verraise a distinctly better option than swiftrez. But RDM does not have more DPS than SMN. It's the weakest of the casters presented multiple times in this thread.

You do realize dualcast still hits the GCD right? We're belting spells out, but not at the speed you seem to think we are. We can push ~270 potency per GCD (~2.37s) on average, with maybe up to ~300 potency per GCD once we get to the melee and finisher spells. Combine every dot you have for your SMN, then your GCD attacks, and how much potency per second is that? Now account for the fact that you can have these dots on a lot of enemies, whereas RDM's only aoe is scatter spam, a few moulinets, and Contra Sixte.

[Ariomi]

Let me spell it out for you.

"Oh no both healers are dead. Vercure -> Verraise Healer 1-> Swiftcast -> Verraise Healer 2. Well, there's over half my MP pool".

Any other obvious RDM job tips you wanna share? I didn't quite understand the first time you didn't have to hardcast verraise to proc a dualcast for verraise and obviously it never dawned on me Swiftcast nulls the dualcast proc.

Or maybe you just don't pay attention and read in your victim narrative wherever possible. Woe is summoners dps despite being one of the highest. I'm not even against you that it's a difficult job to play and needs some balance added because of this but as it is, even your damage on Susano and Lakshmi shows that the job is still capable of hitting hard.

Your painfully wrong about a large number of things. Nobody here believes that summoner's dps is ok. Let alone top. Here's where Summoner stands in dps. They average around 2-3rd lowest dps and lower then both other casters. You can go through the different options and look for yourself.

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/15#boss=1037

As A summoner "Oh no. Both healers are dead. It's a wipe."
If a summoner wants two raise both healers. Guess what. It's still 50% of the Summoner's Mana. As you so eloquently put, The minimum amount of time A red Mage can rez both healers could be right around 4 seconds. The Minimum amount of time a summoner could do it is around 9 seconds. Swiftcast > raise >wait for Gcd hard cast raise. By the time the Summoner gets both healers up, the tanks are most likely dead and nothing can save the run. Never mind that Summoner spent half their mana and 9 seconds doing nothing. During that 9 seconds, the Summoner is lucky if they do 180 potency per tick if they have their dots up. The Red Mage just goes back to attacking. A red mage can go any stone sky sea dummy and beat the dummy without using a single mana cooldown. Summoner's are encouraged to use as much as their mana as possible to increase dps. The dps loss hurts summoner more as it means they can no longer use their strongest spell.

Do you use ruin for 120 potency and 240 Mana, or ruin 3 for 170 potency and 1440 mana? (Under tri disaster buff) You use way more mana, But it's a dps gain. Alternatively, Summoner can play more passively, using ruin 1 and ruin 2 to save on mana, but lose a large amount of damage. (Oh only about a third of their spell damage)

Some other Red Mage tips? Sure. You can use all your Ogcds after you dualcast Veraero. You can fit in Ogcd's cleanly as there is a delay when Jolt 2 and Veraero cast before the Global cooldown resets. This is an improved Version of Summoner casting ruin 2 instead of ruin 3 so they can fit in a Ogcd without setting their rotation back.

Something quite interesting I noticed playing both Red Mage and Summoner. Ahk morn has 680 potency. Verflare/Holy is 550. Unbuffed (No embolden) on a training dummy at the same Ilvl Verholy does 11,830 damage. Ahk Morn did 10,992 damage. I find it odd that a 680 potency Ahk morn is out damaged by an unbuffed 550 potency.

[Kazukiyashuo]

Red mage has dual cast as well. Which vastly outperforms Summoner's rez. A red mage can cast vercure on themselves then instantly cast rez.

Summoner has to either use a swiftcast or hard rez when a red mage can do it almost instantly

Then play RDM!All i see everyday in the forums is crying about anything. You know i would like them to remove the RNG from AST, SCH can give his buff whenever he wants, i want that as well. PLZ SE