Summoner Over-Nered (and A few other Problems)

[Jeykama]

Those numbers were taken from the same fight, (Susanoo Ex) and were the very top dps from their respective job class. They were all doing the same fight with the same mechanics and represent the highest numbers that class can do in that situation.

Smn being 4k dps in the best scenario opposed to most classes being around 4200-4500 with Samurai at 5000 dps.

The only class worse then Summoner was Machinist at 3600 dps. Paladins and warriors can reach around 3200 dps.

Bad rep? Hardly. Using hard concrete facts like dps numbers to prove that summoner was nerfed too hard too much for you?

Bad rep is pulling out numbers without explaining what created them. For all I had known you had pulled out those numbers from all fight sources, like some random trash pack for BRD. Knowing it's just a single target fight is better.
There is still no answer about balance padding or comp for buffs/debuffs though. For all we know the SAM had 100% Balance uptime and full physical dps synergy and the SMN had nothing.

[Ariomi]

Bad rep is pulling out numbers without explaining what created them. For all I had known you had pulled out those numbers from all fight sources, like some random trash pack for BRD. Knowing it's just a single target fight is better.
There is still no answer about balance padding or comp for buffs/debuffs though. For all we know the SAM had 100% Balance uptime and full physical dps synergy and the SMN had nothing.

And I explained where I first posted the numbers that these were the highest dps numbers of each respective class. Both fights with the Samurai and the summoner had balance uptime of around 53-56% (Act is great for looking at things and comparing! I can click at both fights and get the very exact details of each class!)

And if the top summoner, which is currently at 4k dps, is compared to the other classes, it's clearly lacking. You can say oh well Summoner has better Aoe, except that deathflare was nerfed, and bane was nerfed heavily. Bane went from 110 potency per tick to 80 potency per tick with increased fall off damage per add. Oh and Summoner's strongest spammable Aoe (Meaning not requiring a minute, two minute or three minute* cooldown) is 30 potency.

[Jeykama]

And I explained where I first posted the numbers that these were the highest dps numbers of each respective class. Both fights with the Samurai and the summoner had balance uptime of around 53-56% (Act is great for looking at things and comparing! I can click at both fights and get the very exact details of each class!)

When you posted those numbers you said nothing of the sort about that context, all I see still are numbers and jobs in that post. The burden of proof is on you if you're going to pull numbers out and try to prove a point, all I'm saying. It's like saying this game is dying by cherry-picking pop numbers taken at daytime pop 3.0 (sam with 100% enhanced balance) vs. night-time pop 3.5 (SMN with no cards). If the SMN and SAM both had enhanced balance with 50% uptime cool, your numbers actually mean something.

On the other hand Susano is an extremely melee high-uptime fight if you don't have to do mechanics and aoe are baited well, and high-uptime have always been SMN's weakness because of the nature of dots.
I think SAM being so high is more worrisome than SMN being so "low".

[Ariomi]

When you posted those numbers you said nothing of the sort about that context, all I see still are numbers and jobs in that post. The burden of proof is on you if you're going to pull numbers out and try to prove a point, all I'm saying. It's like saying this game is dying by cherry-picking pop numbers taken at daytime pop 3.0 (sam with 100% enhanced balance) vs. night-time pop 3.5 (SMN with no cards). If the SMN and SAM both had enhanced balance with 50% uptime cool, your numbers actually mean something.

On the other hand Susano is an extremely melee high-uptime fight if you don't have to do mechanics and aoe are baited well, and high-uptime have always been SMN's weakness because of the nature of dots.
I think SAM being so high is more worrisome than SMN being so "low".

Well ease your fears, the numbers are off the same fight with around the same time of balance (53% smn vs 56% Samurai) And is the same fight (Susano Ex) With the top dps parse in each category, showcasing what the current strongest parse of each job is capable of. Susano is extremely high uptime for Smn as no matter what the mechanic, A summoner can throw on their dots, or ruin 2. The only positive change from the summoner rework is how mobile it is. Only dot you have to worry about casting ever is Miasma 3. If you have to cross the middle, you can slide cast miasma 3, use ruin 2, tri disaster, fester, shadow flare, without a problem at all. Even if a Summoner is trapped within the fetter rocks the Dots, and our pet can still deal damage. And Summoner being low is much more concerning then Samurai being high. So Susano being a high uptime boss has no effect on summoner unless it's a high uptime on melee and low uptime on casters.

Samurai is just dps. Offers nothing to the team but high dps. Now Ninja on the other hand, offers good dps, a raid wide 10% dps increase, inherent aggro management. Take away Samurai's high dps and it has nothing to offer. Can't buff the team in any way that a ninja couldnt do better.

[Neophyte]

And if the top summoner, which is currently at 4k dps, is compared to the other classes, it's clearly lacking. You can say oh well Summoner has better Aoe, except that deathflare was nerfed, and bane was nerfed heavily. Bane wentfrom 110 potency per tick to 80 potency per tick with increased fall off damage per add. Oh and Summoner's strongest spammable Aoe (Meaning not requiring a minute, two minute or three minute* cooldown) is 30 potency.

Doesn't change the fact that an add at the right time is a 600-800 potency gain for SMN, while it's a smaller potency gain for RDM or maybe none at all (e.g. he has opportunity costs if delaying Contre-Sixt, other than a SMN delaying painflare).
Adds don't rain randomly from the sky. Usually people know when they come up.

A SMN in a A9s similar fight would do the adds almost alone without any single target dps loss (maybe 100-200 pot), while RDM and every other class has way higher costs for tossing some AoE out or are way weaker doing that.

Bahamut and DWT, as well as the usage of Painflare (i.e. "your stacks") is at least a bit flexible. As long as you don't delay the usage of aetherflow itself you can delay your oGCD rotation without too much loss.
A SMN has, without much trouble, always the big boom ready when he needs it.

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A SMN can adjust to such things with big dps gains liberating all 7 others players from bothering about adds, what can a RDM do? He can switch to scatter (wow) when adds are coming up and maybe can use his 200 pot cleave, but therefore lose his strongest single target spell (Verholy/-flare Needs a single target melee combo).

A fight like A1S with two targets up for 75% of the fight or big adds in A12s? Advantage for SMN (and BRD as well).

Stop looking at training dolls or just 1-2 (quite similar) fights..

[Ariomi]

A SMN can adjust to such things with big dps gains liberating all 7 others players from bothering about adds, what can a RDM do? He can switch to scatter (wow) when adds are coming up and maybe can use his 200 pot cleave, but therefore lose his strongest single target spell (Verholy/-flare Needs a single target melee combo).

I was a summoner for all of the last raid tier. Believe me when I say I know what their old Aoe capabilities were. The problem? Every Aoe that summoner has except for one has been gutted or nerfed. While Black Mage, Ninja, Samurai can easily surpass Summoner in Aoe with dragoons and monks being able to do enough while still having high single target damage. Samurai wins the aoe contest with their 800 potency aoe, but Samurai wins dps period. Ninja's are the most notable in my opinion with Ten Chi Jin being able to be a stronger deathflare with no damage fall off(making a 500 potency katon). Oh and speaking of which, Katon which is now buffed from Ninja's losing poison and gaining passive damage increase to everything (Not Just physical Damage), Kassastu, and being able to deathblossom. So let's take a look. ten Chi Jin 500 potency katon and hell frog medium 400 potency vs Deathflare 400 potency with fall off. Two Katons at 250 potency with one guaranteed to crit on all targets with kassastu and are 50 base potency higher then painflare and instead of bane, which does 64 potency for the second enemy, and 48 for the third, Ninja can death blossom them all for 110 potency each. Not to mention that ninjas can get 4 katons/dotons per minute and can very quickly build enough gauge for hell frog which is just a massive dps gain. Oh and Ninja's can buff the entire group's damage by 10%.

Blm can now flare adds multiple times, fire 2 on command, Thunder 4 (which does 230 potency to all adds hit) and foul them every 30 seconds for 650 potency with fall off. Pretty much outclasses Summoner's Aoes any time they want now.

Summoner's Aoe is heavily gimped on the fact that everything is a cooldown, has damage fall off, was nerfed in potency (dots) or requires aether stacks to be used. Bahamut has extremely awkward timing in fights and you can either use him as soon as you can, or hold onto him and potentially lose dps from Summoner's abilities just sitting off cooldown.

It's funny that you bring up Bard. Bard has two Aoes. Both 100 potency now. One has a 15 second cooldown timer than can be reset, the other is a spammable skill that does 100 potency. If You think Bard has the advantage, any class that can use spammable aoes that have more then 100 potency are at an advantage. Which would be anything except summoner with their 30 potency tri bind.

So out off the eight other dps classes, minimum of four classes can out perform them in Aoe. (Samurai, Ninja, Black Mage, Bard) Which also happen to outdps summoner is single target damage, and also happen to outperform their utility. Summoner doesn't even shine in Aoe even more. Literally no reason to have a summoner in your group when there are multiple classes that do everything better.

Seeing as most groups will probably have a samurai in their group their no point in having summoner. Just get a red mage or a black mage.

[TaranTatsuuchi]

...
Ninja's are the most notable in my opinion with Ten Chi Jin being able to be a stronger deathflare with no damage fall off(making a 500 potency katon). Oh and speaking of which, Katon which is now buffed from Ninja's losing poison and gaining passive damage increase to everything (Not Just physical Damage), Kassastu, and being able to deathblossom. So let's take a look. ten Chi Jin 500 potency katon and hell frog medium 400 potency vs Deathflare 400 potency with fall off. Two Katons at 250 potency with one guaranteed to crit on all targets with kassastu and are 50 base potency higher then painflare and instead of bane, which does 64 potency for the second enemy, and 48 for the third, Ninja can death blossom them all for 110 potency each. Not to mention that ninjas can get 4 katons/dotons per minute and can very quickly build enough gauge for hell frog which is just a massive dps gain. Oh and Ninja's can buff the entire group's damage by 10%.
...

I haven't tested myself, but I've read that the tooltip for the poison is incorrect and it doesn't actually apply to the magic damage from the ninjitsu.

[Neophyte]

So out off the eight other dps classes, minimum of four classes can out perform them in Aoe. (Samurai, Ninja, Black Mage, Bard) Which also happen to outdps summoner is single target damage, and also happen to outperform their utility. Summoner doesn't even shine in Aoe even more. Literally no reason to have a summoner in your group when there are multiple classes that do everything better.

But all of them (except SMN) lose way more single target dps while doing AoE.

You may declare it a disadvantage, but there are fights were having the choice of AoE/single target only applied to oGCDs instead of GCDs is an advantage.

I mean' it's not hard to test.. go A9s with a full group, a SMn there blows a RDM out of the water.

@Alleo: Soloing PotD is done with sustain potions now and probably every dps job can beat that with them.
SMN just don't have the unfair advantage anymore to be the only dps to fulfill tank/healing requirements on literally everything open world.

[Alleo]

@Alleo: Soloing PotD is done with sustain potions now and probably every dps job can beat that with them.
SMN just don't have the unfair advantage anymore to be the only dps to fulfill tank/healing requirements on literally everything open world.

How often can you use that potions? Because unlike other jobs we simply have no real sufficient healing skill. And unlike other jobs we also had no great self defense other than Titan egi. (I am not sure how we fulfilled healing requirements?) And instead of the others getting better they nerfed our solo abilities to the ground. Titan is simply not really useable anymore if you also want to use all of your lvl 70 skills..How that is suddenly fair is beyond me.

[Ariomi]

But all of them (except SMN) lose way more single target dps while doing AoE.

You may declare it a disadvantage, but there are fights were having the choice of AoE/single target only applied to oGCDs instead of GCDs is an advantage.

Samurai has an aoe Ogcd that is 800 potency. Nothing about that skill loses single target damage. Ninja's hellfrog medium is the same way. Only a 400 dps gain per target hit. Katon is an 140 dps gain over raiton if you hit only two adds. Black Mage's Foul is just another 650 potency per add on a thirty second timer.

Summoner used to be able to make up for this as they previously had Aoe spells they could use at any point in the fight to supplement it if everything was on cooldown. With the nerfs to bane, it's better off hard casting your dots on everything then just painflare x3 and deathflare and all your aoes are gone for an entire minute. Wonder how hard it is to outdps a class in Aoe damage when everything is on cooldown. Summoner lost Miasma 2 (Aoe dot) Blizzard 2 (50 potency aoe) Shadow flare on command (25 potency aoe dot) lost 30 damage per tick on dots then bane doubles down on that and makes it weaker.

Blm just laughs at Summoner, flares and fouls. Nukes the adds way harder then summoner ever could. Deathflare is 400 potency every minute. Foul is 650 potency every 30 seconds. Both Aoes. If Summoner's cooldowns were shorter, they might be able to keep up. But every class got stronger Aoe's while the majority of Summoner's didn't. Take a level 60 summoner into A9s for me. tell me how well the Aoes go now that Summoner doesn't have raging strikes, Spur, Miasma 2 or Blizzard 2 and deathflares weakened state.