WAR OT enmity monger

[SyzzleSpark]

What's all this talk about the OT needing to be 2nd on the aggro list? Isn't that what provoke's for?

They think they "need" to be second in aggro because that's what they are accustomed to in groups where they spam BB combos and force their MT to sit in defensive stance, and then, in spite of being in defensive stance all the time, their MT is dying for whatever unfathomable reason, so its being justified further as insurance that the boss won't go to one of their DPS. -_-

[vigioX-Sun]

This is why outside of raid I MT as War an let whoever i find to OT, all i need is Skill sunder in defiance an done i wont lose aggro unless someone else provoke.
now if im OT an i see MT on tank stance an not droping it like 90% of tanks in DF then is a butcher block festival.

[SyzzleSpark]

he has to stay in shield oath or grit anyway

I didn't read past here because the only appropriate response at this point is "Except that he doesn't."

[bounddreamer]

Optimally the MT doesn't die.

Optimally. However, it happens. Anywhere from 24 mans to savage raids. Prog, cutting it close in a speed run, people getting careless, new players who don't know how to time a heal or cooldown, there's any number of reasons. There are certain fights where you absolutely want to be second in hate as OT because if the MT goes down and the boss so much as looks at the healer they will die and that can cascade into a wipe.

When I'm partied with my co tank I keep Eye up and usually alternate between Eye and BB combo unless I'm cutting it so close I have to alternate between Eye and Path. But we've been tanking stuff together for a while and he's very skilled, there's only one or two times I've accidentally ripped off him (usually in A10S).

Anyhow it's academic at this point, rotations are going to change in Stormblood and Path will have a higher Beast Gauge value. Please look forward to it.

[Areic]

I didn't read past here because the only appropriate response at this point is "Except that he doesn't."

Don't read it then, if you don't want to discuss with actual information and just be rude about it you be you man.

This is how we've always done it safely with our raid comp, and how I always see it done without any complaints, nor have I ever heard complaint from any pug tank doing my usual DPS rotation

[aleph_null]

OP never said the warriors were in tank stance, and most I run into don't try to be unless it's some stupid 24 man where the other tanks have to have a big E-peen about having aggro. Generally OT should be #2 on the aggro list, and as of 3.0 patches warriors do far more DPS than the other two. For AS9 which was an easier fight and even with me on bombs I could pull upward of 2k DPS, just a few hundred below our lowest DPS. So generally the MT will sacrifice some time in tank stance to hold aggro, and still do just fine. On that same fight our paladin pulled 1.5-1.6k DPs

Well actually if we're talking about optimizing tank dps the war will be pulling the boss anyway so it's kinda moot to argue about aggro catching up. With war pulling both tanks don't have to be in tank stance and both tanks will pull similar number of dps. In a9s drk should even have higher dps than war, due to salted earth and dark passenger on adds, since war shouldn't decimate. The dps loss on the boss is huge going from 500 potency fell cleave to 280 decimate, and the adds don't need to die very fast anyway, letting dots kill them slowly is better.

Things will change in 4.0 but as of now war should be pulling the boss while pld/drk should be doing their dps openers, before provoking the boss off the war later into the fight. In that case even a single butcher's block would mess up their aggro and they have to use power slash or halone more than once.

Optimally. However, it happens. Anywhere from 24 mans to savage raids. Prog, cutting it close in a speed run, people getting careless, new players who don't know how to time a heal or cooldown, there's any number of reasons. There are certain fights where you absolutely want to be second in hate as OT because if the MT goes down and the boss so much as looks at the healer they will die and that can cascade into a wipe.

When I'm partied with my co tank I keep Eye up and usually alternate between Eye and BB combo unless I'm cutting it so close I have to alternate between Eye and Path. But we've been tanking stuff together for a while and he's very skilled, there's only one or two times I've accidentally ripped off him (usually in A10S).

Anyhow it's academic at this point, rotations are going to change in Stormblood and Path will have a higher Beast Gauge value. Please look forward to it.

I'm just nitpicking on your usage of "optimal" there. You can't play optimally if the war doesn't pull the boss, and in that case the (temporary) OT would be either a pld/drk, so forcing them to spam aggro combo just to be #2 on the aggro list is a huge waste of dps. Even if the MT dies you can just provoke and follow up with your aggro combo, or if the situation is bad enough you can go into tank stance. After a tank swap the war should naturally be #2 unless something happens (like timegates in a12s resetting their aggro).

[Areic]

snipper

On current content, I don't believe I've ever pulled boss, and we usually run PLD/War for AS9-10 then DRK for 11-12. This has usually let me get in a big burst opener with our DRG/nin damage increases+my berserk and triple fel cleave while keeping consistent damage from therein. And all the bosses took us very little time to clear, I believe we downed AS9-10 in two weeks raiding two days two hours a week, then AS11 and AS12 took us about 2-3 weeks each doing so casually. Set-up has always seemed pretty optimal to us and we skip a lot of mechanics

[Hruodig]

On current content, I don't believe I've ever pulled boss, and we usually run PLD/War for AS9-10 then DRK for 11-12. This has usually let me get in a big burst opener with our DRG/nin damage increases+my berserk and triple fel cleave while keeping consistent damage from therein. And all the bosses took us very little time to clear, I believe we downed AS9-10 in two weeks raiding two days two hours a week, then AS11 and AS12 took us about 2-3 weeks each doing so casually. Set-up has always seemed pretty optimal to us and we skip a lot of mechanics

This is because you force your mt to stay in tank stance while you use butcher's block. Optimally you would pull with unchained, then your pld/drk would provoke after a bit and tank the rest in dps stance, with you also in dps stance, only using storm's eye in order to not build aggro. It's also because, especially for drk, using their enmity combo is a dps loss. This is how you optimize tank dps.

[dragonseth07]

On current content, I don't believe I've ever pulled boss, and we usually run PLD/War for AS9-10 then DRK for 11-12. This has usually let me get in a big burst opener with our DRG/nin damage increases+my berserk and triple fel cleave while keeping consistent damage from therein. And all the bosses took us very little time to clear, I believe we downed AS9-10 in two weeks raiding two days two hours a week, then AS11 and AS12 took us about 2-3 weeks each doing so casually. Set-up has always seemed pretty optimal to us and we skip a lot of mechanics

What works for you is great. Keep at it with your static.

But, what's optimal isn't up for debate. There is hard math and world-first raiders supporting actual optimal play.

[aleph_null]

On current content, I don't believe I've ever pulled boss, and we usually run PLD/War for AS9-10 then DRK for 11-12.

Well if it works for you then good for you, there's nothing wrong with not using the most optimal strat. With a ninja you can pull the boss by doing tomahawk > equilibrium > deliverance, followed by your "OT" opener, while your pld can do their opener without shield oath or halone combo. There's no argument this would give higher total dps. This probably would change in 4.0 but just to let you know that there's a better way to maximize group dps (not your own dps). Even without ninja you can infuriate > unchained > tomahawk and lose one fell cleave in your opener, while still having higher total dps than letting your pld pull in shield oath.