WAR OT enmity monger

[SyzzleSpark]

As the OP said, they see a storm's eye debuff and no storm's path. I've not used storms path in ages for any hard content as it hasn't been required since we very first started AS12. And doing that+BB spam+triple cleave when berserk is up, I can count on one hand the amount times my MT has lost aggro to me ( Usually if I get reckless after a tank swap before they have a chance to get aggro )

Because they're sitting in their "tank stance" so of course you're not ripping aggro. Now if you were to go in with a DRK or PLD that actually cared about their DPS and the raid's DPS, you would not be able to BB spam because it is a raid DPS loss. Other tanks sacrifice more potency from using their aggro combo than you sacrifice from not using yours.

Like I said though, this is all moot in a few days and really only applies to 3.x rotations.

[Areic]

How do you not hold aggro? The PLD/Drk in my static never loses aggro and I constantly shift back and forth between eye/BB, and thats with him using most his higher DPS abilities.

As long as you're in tank stance and they're in deliverance, you should hardly lose aggro at a very minimal dps loss if any

[aleph_null]

As long as you're in tank stance

That's your answer. If your drk only does 1 power slash out of grit after you pull the boss then you'll rip it sooner or later even with not a single butcher's block, since your dps is naturally higher than the drk (assuming equally skilled and geared). That's where shadewalker comes in, but that still won't let you use butcher's block without forcing them to do another power slash.

Also - the OT should optimally be second in hate in case you, the MT, die.

Optimally the MT doesn't die.

[Areic]

That's your answer. If your drk only does 1 power slash out of grit after you pull the boss then you'll rip it sooner or later even with not a single butcher's block, since your dps is naturally higher than the drk (assuming equally skilled and geared). That's where shadewalker comes in, but that still won't let you use butcher's block without forcing them to do another power slash.

OP never said the warriors were in tank stance, and most I run into don't try to be unless it's some stupid 24 man where the other tanks have to have a big E-peen about having aggro. Generally OT should be #2 on the aggro list, and as of 3.0 patches warriors do far more DPS than the other two. For AS9 which was an easier fight and even with me on bombs I could pull upward of 2k DPS, just a few hundred below our lowest DPS. So generally the MT will sacrifice some time in tank stance to hold aggro, and still do just fine. On that same fight our paladin pulled 1.5-1.6k DPs

[SyzzleSpark]

snip

Posts like this almost make me wanna go tell all the emo doomsaying WARs complaining about their "nerfs" that they bloody deserve it, and kick 'em while they're down. 2 years of this entitled way of thinking has been a plague on the meta.

WAR should not be #2 in aggro unless there are tank swaps happening.

WAR is also not "far" ahead of either tank. If slashing is up WAR does like 2% more DPS than DRK, and ~5% more than PLD. Your PLD could have been doing 18K if you were not forcing him to turtle up in ShO, and you would have lost like, 10DPS.

I'm sorry but if you are going to tout your personal DPS numbers like this people are going to point out how you are mathematically incorrect for doing so, and were gimping your raid's global DPS because you consider yourself so "far ahead" of your co-tanks.

[Areic]

snip.

The hell are you talking about? I've always just done as my raid asked, I never even knew optimal HW rotation until my MT started talking to me and we worked it out together. The safest DPS to emnity gain without overtaking the MT for us has been an alternate Storm's eye into BB combo and back and forth. There's no "hurting" global raid DPS, the only one in our raid that has ever been effected in the slightest is our MT, and for a large chunk of savage fight durations he has to stay in shield oath or grit anyway, especially AS12.

Even in fights tank stance isn't required much like AS10 and we both only pop into it for the tank swaps, warrior numbers for that fight were at 1.8k typically on a relaxed night while PLD numbers were at around 1.5-1.6k. And doing this type of rotation has always been safe, always accepted by the raid. It just sounds to me like people are either A: Getting half retarded warriors who only BB in tank stance while being the OT for god knows what reason but I've never seen it, or B: Just can't hold aggro or accept they might need to be in tank stance a tiny bit longer. Stance dancing is also a thing, I've risked losing aggro while MT'ing before and will quickly switch back for 1-2 BB combos then back to deliverance

[aleph_null]

OP never said the warriors were in tank stance, and most I run into don't try to be unless it's some stupid 24 man where the other tanks have to have a big E-peen about having aggro. Generally OT should be #2 on the aggro list, and as of 3.0 patches warriors do far more DPS than the other two. For AS9 which was an easier fight and even with me on bombs I could pull upward of 2k DPS, just a few hundred below our lowest DPS. So generally the MT will sacrifice some time in tank stance to hold aggro, and still do just fine. On that same fight our paladin pulled 1.5-1.6k DPs

Well actually if we're talking about optimizing tank dps the war will be pulling the boss anyway so it's kinda moot to argue about aggro catching up. With war pulling both tanks don't have to be in tank stance and both tanks will pull similar number of dps. In a9s drk should even have higher dps than war, due to salted earth and dark passenger on adds, since war shouldn't decimate. The dps loss on the boss is huge going from 500 potency fell cleave to 280 decimate, and the adds don't need to die very fast anyway, letting dots kill them slowly is better.

Things will change in 4.0 but as of now war should be pulling the boss while pld/drk should be doing their dps openers, before provoking the boss off the war later into the fight. In that case even a single butcher's block would mess up their aggro and they have to use power slash or halone more than once.

Optimally. However, it happens. Anywhere from 24 mans to savage raids. Prog, cutting it close in a speed run, people getting careless, new players who don't know how to time a heal or cooldown, there's any number of reasons. There are certain fights where you absolutely want to be second in hate as OT because if the MT goes down and the boss so much as looks at the healer they will die and that can cascade into a wipe.

When I'm partied with my co tank I keep Eye up and usually alternate between Eye and BB combo unless I'm cutting it so close I have to alternate between Eye and Path. But we've been tanking stuff together for a while and he's very skilled, there's only one or two times I've accidentally ripped off him (usually in A10S).

Anyhow it's academic at this point, rotations are going to change in Stormblood and Path will have a higher Beast Gauge value. Please look forward to it.

I'm just nitpicking on your usage of "optimal" there. You can't play optimally if the war doesn't pull the boss, and in that case the (temporary) OT would be either a pld/drk, so forcing them to spam aggro combo just to be #2 on the aggro list is a huge waste of dps. Even if the MT dies you can just provoke and follow up with your aggro combo, or if the situation is bad enough you can go into tank stance. After a tank swap the war should naturally be #2 unless something happens (like timegates in a12s resetting their aggro).

[Areic]

snipper

On current content, I don't believe I've ever pulled boss, and we usually run PLD/War for AS9-10 then DRK for 11-12. This has usually let me get in a big burst opener with our DRG/nin damage increases+my berserk and triple fel cleave while keeping consistent damage from therein. And all the bosses took us very little time to clear, I believe we downed AS9-10 in two weeks raiding two days two hours a week, then AS11 and AS12 took us about 2-3 weeks each doing so casually. Set-up has always seemed pretty optimal to us and we skip a lot of mechanics

[bounddreamer]

I'm just nitpicking on your usage of "optimal" there.

Again, this is something that's going to change in two days due to being unable to infuriate outside of battle, please look forward to it~

Good to know you're nitpicking, that pretty much closes the discussion for me, thank you.

OP was asking questions that sounded duty finder based, and I answered on that basis. You're replying with static and savage level meta.

[bounddreamer]

Optimally the MT doesn't die.

Optimally. However, it happens. Anywhere from 24 mans to savage raids. Prog, cutting it close in a speed run, people getting careless, new players who don't know how to time a heal or cooldown, there's any number of reasons. There are certain fights where you absolutely want to be second in hate as OT because if the MT goes down and the boss so much as looks at the healer they will die and that can cascade into a wipe.

When I'm partied with my co tank I keep Eye up and usually alternate between Eye and BB combo unless I'm cutting it so close I have to alternate between Eye and Path. But we've been tanking stuff together for a while and he's very skilled, there's only one or two times I've accidentally ripped off him (usually in A10S).

Anyhow it's academic at this point, rotations are going to change in Stormblood and Path will have a higher Beast Gauge value. Please look forward to it.