About Esuna, Exalted Detriment and Leeches change

[winsock]

snip giant wall off text

1) You never answered my question. I understand you feel like you're missing out because you had many skill inherently originally. If you came to this game as a new player i.e. you didnt know you had them inherently originally, would you have the same opinion? Explain why this is bad design decision, rather than cry and rant about how SB isnt HW.

2) Let's also scrap this idea that healers are taking on big losses here. Even if you are truly convinced that you must use role skill to rebuild your old class as it was rather modify the old one into something new and different, the number of useless/near useless cc skills in the current system prevent you from taking significant losses here. For example, WHM who you argue was hit hardest, could take Protect, Esuna, swiftcast, E4E, and Largesse, and still be better than it was in HW. You've got reduced cooldowns on Assize and a new MP management skill to help you with MP. You lose the already near-useless iteration of HW surecast. Trade Stoneskin for DB, which is arguably a much better skill. Your biggest loss is Virus, a skill that is near useless in many fights because it doesnt impact magic damage. And useless in many more because supervirus is preferred.

3) Let's stop this notion that these skills are 4-5 slots are MUST HAVES. They aren't. You are imagining things. Queue up for a roulette, dont use any of these skills comparable skills. Shake your head in defeat after you clear the content successfully. These skills are not required. You dont "need to regain what you lost". You have the option, but you also have the option to play around with other skills.

Hypothetically:
Let's say that the current HW SCH had to choose between HW leeches and HW Cleric Stance. What vet SCH wouldnt take CS? There is potential for these skills to be competitive. Esuna is not a must-have and is a dead skill in alot of content.

4) HPS is not DPS. You only need 'enough' HPS, and in the overwhelming majority of content, that HPS check is very low. So low in fact, that the benefit of role skills that would impact survivability become questionable.


Have an open mind here. Not being exactly the same as you were HW is not necessarily a bad thing. Breathe and go into SB with an open mind before sounding the alarms.

[Nyghtmarerobu]

For once you and I actually agree on something if only partially Nyght. However even if Luminiferous Aether is the stronger of the two, all they need to do is either extend Shroud of Saints duration or lower Luminiferous Aether's to like 20 and raise Shroud of Saints to 20 seconds as well. But should they remove these two abilities from their respective classes just to resolve the problem? No.

This is a perfect example of why I said we should look at the bigger picture before we judge why things are going the direction they are. Having the skills go back to their respective jobs, would end up leaving sch out in the rain so to speak. With the Aetherflow change that was made, they have lost out on MP regen, and now were not being fair to them. You could say, "Lets just return it back to normal", but that also changes how it works for summoner. This change could be something Over powered for them that would make them a much more viable pick over redmage and blackmage in content. I'm far reaching in speculation, but I'm trying to make the point that there is a ripple effect to making changes without looking at how it will effect everyone.

[Elamys]

Have an open mind here. Not being exactly the same as you were HW is not necessarily a bad thing. Breathe and go into SB with an open mind before sounding the alarms.

This is certainly a good idea to keep in mind, but I doubt the game is going to change so much as to make mainstays such as Protect or Lucid Dreaming no longer necessary a vast majority of the time. While I imagine in raids you could have one healer take Protect or something like that, and in easier content you could probably drop Largesse, I can't really see a point where I wouldn't want to always take the abilities I used to have.

It feels very bad, from a gameplay standpoint, to lose abilities I once had and then have to take them back through cross role actions, when they could have taken the time to come up with more unique abilities for us to take. It's not exactly fun or engaging to have to choose between a persistent damage reduction, a huge healing boost, a large MP refresh, my dispel, etc.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

They both reduce enmity generation.

Incorrect, but I can see why you'd be confused. SoS cuts all current enmity in half at the time it's used. Aether is basically quelling strikes. Inaccurate comparison is inaccurate.

[Elamys]

Incorrect, but I can see why you'd be confused. SoS cuts all current enmity in half at the time it's used. Aether is basically quelling strikes. Inaccurate comparison is inaccurate.

To say one has no enmity reduction is still entirely wrong. I'm not sure why this is somehow an argument. They both reduce enmity.

Not to mention that the argument being made was that LA was the one with no enmity reduction, when it's the persistent one.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

To say one has no enmity reduction is still entirely wrong. I'm not sure why this is somehow an argument. They both reduce enmity.

Cutting enmity in half isn't the same as reducing enmity generation, and more importantly, is 100x more superior than just halving a select few actions aggro. Reducing aggro generation means that only a few select actions generate only 50% hate, and is inferior, in every sense of the word. Cutting all current enmity in half means that allow the aggro from healing/dpsing is reduced to 50% of what it was, a small but game changing difference.

[Ootarion]

Either my tooltip is wrong, and has been wrong since I got my AST soulstone, or there is some misinformation going around here.

https://image.prntscr.com/image/zgH-...ivmNNjJoIA.png

here is a screenshot of the tooltip as it currently appears in game. Containing the phrase "Reduces enmity generation."

Oh....well you were right, I must have been confusing the Enmity interactions between Shroud of Saints and Luminiferous Aether, my apologies >.<

[Ootarion]

This is a perfect example of why I said we should look at the bigger picture before we judge why things are going the direction they are. Having the skills go back to their respective jobs, would end up leaving sch out in the rain so to speak. With the Aetherflow change that was made, they have lost out on MP regen, and now were not being fair to them. You could say, "Lets just return it back to normal", but that also changes how it works for summoner. This change could be something Over powered for them that would make them a much more viable pick over redmage and blackmage in content. I'm far reaching in speculation, but I'm trying to make the point that there is a ripple effect to making changes without looking at how it will effect everyone.

The solution shouldnt be to take the MP regens away from WHM and AST as built in abilities just to give one to SCH when they can just give one to Scholar. Not like White Mage doesnt have two methods of restoring MP (IE Shroud of Saints and Assize which restores 10% mp)

[Ootarion]

This is certainly a good idea to keep in mind, but I doubt the game is going to change so much as to make mainstays such as Protect or Lucid Dreaming no longer necessary a vast majority of the time. While I imagine in raids you could have one healer take Protect or something like that, and in easier content you could probably drop Largesse, I can't really see a point where I wouldn't want to always take the abilities I used to have.

It feels very bad, from a gameplay standpoint, to lose abilities I once had and then have to take them back through cross role actions, when they could have taken the time to come up with more unique abilities for us to take. It's not exactly fun or engaging to have to choose between a persistent damage reduction, a huge healing boost, a large MP refresh, my dispel, etc.

Elamys pretty much said what I would have responded with Winsock. The problem is that half of what is in Cross Role for Healers isnt even new, its just renamed, if that. But Lucid Dreaming is Shroud of Saints/Luminiferous Aether with a generalized duration for one. several of these if not all of them are no brainer choices......so those are not really choices at all.

Again I say:

1) Cleansers (Esuna, Exalted Detriment and Leeches), never hurts to be prepared to remove an annoying debuff, but I will acknowledge there are times where I know I didnt need it, but does this really REALLY mean these should be taken out of the core kits of their respective healers?

2) Protect (name one party in their right mind who never has this), I have forgotten to use/couldnt use Protect in the past cause it was in a Cross Class slot that i was not the proper level at the time to use cause of Level Sync or I just genuinely forgot to cast it.

3) Lucid Dreaming, unless you can give me a legitimately darn good excuse as to why an MP Regen isnt necessary, then this is a critical ability. Despite the fact I have not healed freaken Alexander Savage or Extreme, that doesnt change the fact that I do know what I am talking about. I am a very darn great healer, and no matter how much I properly manage my MP, there will come times where I have to burn MP, almost half my bar, just to keep people alive as my WHM or AST, and before you say it, no I am doing NOTHING wrong, I am properly managing my MP, but the demands for healing that I encounter cause me to have to go pretty heal heavy and yes my gear is up to par with the content I am doing. WHM and AST shouldnt be losing an MP Regen to Cross Role simply because people ARE going to constantly have it, I will be surprised if I see someone not have it in emergency.

4) Largesse, goodness who wouldnt want to have a 20% heal buff?

the only spell id be willing to give up at this point, is Swiftcast and even then that is a stretch cause getting an instant heal off can be a clutch save.

You keep telling me I am not answering you Winsock, but I have answered you, you just dont/wont accept my answer and keep trying to pressure me into answering the way you want me to. If that is not the case then I take that back, but that is how you are coming off right now.

[Nyghtmarerobu]

The solution shouldnt be to take the MP regens away from WHM and AST as built in abilities just to give one to SCH when they can just give one to Scholar. Not like White Mage doesnt have two methods of restoring MP (IE Shroud of Saints and Assize which restores 10% mp)

Can we not try to validate your point by bringing up other skills that are not part of Lucid Dream / Shroud of saints / Lumineferous Aether? These are the things you are specifically trying to get fixed, and its not fair to throw Assize into the Mix, as much as it is Ewer, or any other MP regen ability. With that said, my point still stands...

I'm trying to make the point that there is a ripple effect to making changes without looking at how it will effect everyone.

They've gone through the play testing and balancing, and I think the devs have a handle on whats going on.