Gods and Jobs

[Answa]

B/C the revamp is the change? There is nothing stoping them from just moving cures and buffs to thm and debuffs to CNJ. This infact would be Easier for the team, they don't have to touch the lore. Also why give thm AOE heals when you already know your going to give them curga later?

... we're saying the same thing.

[Anonymoose]

But ... but... the changes for 1.20 were PLANNED BEFORE 1.19, just not EXECUTED. Their road map is long term and in-depth. Knowing FULL WELL what was planned from at least 1.18 through at least March 2013, why would they purposely flesh both classes out in specific directions for two patches with the intention of (AFTER stabilizing them) BOOM... swapping them?

That's not just nonsensical, it's terrible management and public relations. Yoshida's a lot better at this than that, I'd think. Am I missing something?

[Answa]

But ... but... the changes for 1.20 were PLANNED BEFORE 1.19, just not EXECUTED. Their road map is long term and in-depth. Knowing FULL WELL what was planned from at least 1.18 through at least March 2013, why would they purposely flesh both classes out in specific directions for two patches with the intention of (AFTER stabilizing them) BOOM... swapping them?

That's not just nonsensical, it's terrible management and public relations. Yoshida's a lot better at this than that, I'd think. Am I missing something?

Lore.

/10char

[grandm]

But ... but... the changes for 1.20 were PLANNED BEFORE 1.19, just not EXECUTED. Their road map is long term and in-depth. Knowing FULL WELL what was planned from at least 1.18 through at least March 2013, why would they purposely flesh both classes out in specific directions for two patches with the intention of (AFTER stabilizing them) BOOM... swapping them?

That's not just nonsensical, it's terrible management and public relations. Yoshida's a lot better at this than that, I'd think. Am I missing something?

they did it, to confuse. to keep their master plan secret till the very last minute. i noticed yoshi-p loves to keep us guessing. giveing us little bits, just enough to set us off, with "what if this happens" or "i bet their going to do this now"

[Anonymoose]

Lore.

/10char

No offense or anything, I mean this genuinely, not antagonistically...but... seriously? All of the contrary evidence and you're certain that THM=WHM and CNJ=BLM and they're going to reverse several patches worth of direction that they would have, if you are correct, purposely undertaken for the express purpose of going back on... because of a few vague references in the lore?

I mean... none of that's changed lately. Just putting every single story about Eorzea That Was on the back burner while the moon crashes into the planet. NBD, business as usual.

I mean, sure, the guide NPCs from the intro (Thancred, Y'shtola, ... Lalafell) have totally different roles, and the Empire's bad guys now have ENTIRELY different goals than they used to, and entirely new storylines are coming in for jobs, and the primals are related to the grand companies, and most canopy content has become quick instanced raids based on post-team-switch community data collection...

But that doesn't give any hint that the lore isn't cemented to the foundation and completely unchangeable, even if the core concept of the game was changed... surely, a few loose free associations (THM is about death so it must be about life by default because there's a branch sect nobody talks to with no bearing on the story whatsoever off in the mountains where you'd never see them unless you looked so obviously it's a white mage) can't be changed.

I'm just... so... confused @.@

[Wynn]

But ... but... the changes for 1.20 were PLANNED BEFORE 1.19, just not EXECUTED. Their road map is long term and in-depth. Knowing FULL WELL what was planned from at least 1.18 through at least March 2013, why would they purposely flesh both classes out in specific directions for two patches with the intention of (AFTER stabilizing them) BOOM... swapping them?

That's not just nonsensical, it's terrible management and public relations. Yoshida's a lot better at this than that, I'd think. Am I missing something?

Same reason they threw in the stopgap crafting recipes and the crazy link system. To throw a band-aid on it until the cure arrives.

[Answa]

Why would you be confused when I've said, from the very first time I posted on this thread, that anything and everything we say is conjecture? Thinking about it at all right now means nothing. I'm being hopeful and I give myself my own excuses. You do the same for your view, only with 1000x the amount of words I use. Thus I never read anything you say because I'm actually in the process of writing my prelim paper and I really need to read these papers to write my background.

So... yes. Seriously.

[Anonymoose]

Why would you be confused when I've said, from the very first time I posted on this thread, that anything and everything we say is conjecture? Thinking about it at all right now means nothing. I'm being hopeful and I give myself my own excuses. You do the same for your view, only with 1000x the amount of words I use. Thus I never read anything you say because I'm actually in the process of writing my prelim paper and I really need to read these papers to write my background.

So... yes. Seriously.

Ahaha, true and fair and well said, good sir! I won't ever begrudge someone for sticking to their guns if they're willing to admit everything in your post there. I commend it, even. Yeah, I tend to use 1000x the words. For some reason, when I attempt to be concise, people grab the completely wrong part of my sentence and run off with it in some irrelevant direction as if that's the issue I was calling attention to.

I figure if I just keep droning on about it and hammering the main idea home and keep adding evidence people will stop saying things like, "WHAT? YOU THINK THE BOW LOOKS LIKE A HARP!? WELL, GIVE ME BACK MY JACKET."

[Inaaca]

No offense or anything, I mean this genuinely, not antagonistically...but... seriously? All of the contrary evidence and you're certain that THM=WHM and CNJ=BLM and they're going to reverse several patches worth of direction that they would have, if you are correct, purposely undertaken for the express purpose of going back on... because of a few vague references in the lore?

Because... none of that's changed lately. Just putting every single story about Eorzea That Was on the back burner while the moon crashes into the planet. NBD, business as usual.

There's only one patch I can recall to memory that would support WHM going to CNJ and it would be where they gave Conjurer additional exclusivity when it came to cure and raise spells. However, you have to remember that this was a temporary fix in response to player's complaints toward class identification, and has little bearing on the big, more thorough, revamp they've been planning in preparation for jobs.

SE has always placed a very high importance on the meaning of lore and story, and FFXIV is no different. For those that pay attention to such matters, the relation to lore and classes here is much more than a few vague references, as I'll get to in a moment.

I mean, sure the guide NPCs from the intro (Thancred, Y'shtola, ... Lalafell) have totally different roles, and the Empire's bad guys now have ENTIRELY different goals than they used to, and entirely new storylines are coming in for jobs, and the primals are related to the grand companies, and most canopy content has become quick instanced raids based on post-team-switch community data collection...

No one had a clear idea as to what the guide NPCs intentions were in the first place, so what makes you so certain that their purposes have been drastically altered? The same goes for the Empire, their intentions were (and still are) rather vague. It's only natural that these major aspects and characters will play a role in both new and old events.

Primals aren't related to the Grand Companies at all. The Grand Companies exist as the City-states' response to all of the threats facing Eorzea. This includes the Empire, the beastmen, the Primals, and most importantly, the looming 7th Umbral Era.

But that doesn't give any hint that the lore isn't cemented to the foundation and completely unchangeable, even if the core concept of the game was changed... surely, a few loose free associations (THM is about death so it must be about life by default because there's a branch sect nobody talks to with no bearing on the story whatsoever off in the mountains where you'd never see them unless you looked so obviously it's a white mage) can't be changed.

Thaumaturges worship the god, Nald'Thal. Nald'Thal is a joint representations of Nald and Thal, the gods of life and death. Both of the temples of Nald and Thal are physically present within the walls of Ul'dah, and available for you to visit at anytime.

In essence, Thaumaturges themselves ARE a branch sect under Nald'Thal. Their guild is physically present in the temple of Thal, the god of death. White Mages would, then, be with the opposite sect of Nald, providing the balance between life and death.

I just completed the level 36 guild quest for Conjurer, and I've never been more certain that they will get Black Mage as a job. According to the guild, Conjurers and the extension of nature's 6 elements (iconic of Final Fantasy's Black Mages) are one and the same. Conjurers and the elements in the Twelveswood are entwined so deeply in lore (including much of Gridania's history and culture) that it would be difficult to separate them at this stage without needless difficulty.



When it really comes right down to it, changing abilities around (which I'll remind you has already been confirmed to happen as early as 1.20), is much simpler than changing lore around.

This is because lore isn't just a text bubble to read, and in particular it plays a role in how quests have been built, what you do in them, and what happens as a result. Changing one paragraph of lore can easily have a snowball effect on lore in the rest of the game, as these things usually tie together and influence each other.

Abilities, on the other hand, are more easily changed as they don't relate much to other game elements besides gameplay within the altered class. And considering that we're getting a complete ability revamp anyways, I don't see why you think lore will be reformed to fit the abilities we have now.

[Anonymoose]

What makes me think the NPCs purpose has changed: The calamity wasn't going to be part of the game since the maps were never going to be developed. The whole story with Cid, Dalamud, the story with the Empire knowing about it... all new. It was even in development over the summer when one of the lore devs broke into the Localization office and told them to name the swimsuits Solar and Lunar instead of Gold and Silver because it would relate more to the coming calamity; implying that this was one of the few things that haven't been set in stone from the start.

I don't deny for a second that a GREAT story could be told for THMs going WHM and CNJs going BLM - I mean... really good. The THMs re-establishing connections with the Nald sect in light of the calamity and rebuilding the Life and Death tradition, giving you the opportunity to spread your wings as a first generation White Mage, the CNJs taking the reins of elemental power after the decimation of the continent and probable weakening of the elemental society... going absolutely darkside on the Empire and Beast Tribes for their hand in the events... it all sounds a LOT better than the other way around.

It's not that I don't think it's a good idea, I just don't see it coming. I do hope Yoshida pulls something out of his hat, but at this point it just wouldn't make a whole bunch of sense to me at all.